Chinese Engine Development

Engineer

Major
Truth is good defense; China's turbofan engines don't even measure up to Russian standards, let alone US/Western ones. Raving against it doesn't make it go away. Until China learns to mass produce world-class engines, the criticism is valid.
I think you've got it backward, as it is Russian equipments that don't measure up to Western and Chinese standards. AL-31 series was designed back in the Soviet days, and it is no secret that Soviet saw military equipments as expendable items. China on the other hand, typically specs her stuffs to MIL-STD standards - Western standards.

That kind of attitude shows up in how differently Russia and China fit new engines on the aircraft. Russia has no issue sticking an unproven modification into airframes or even prototypes. If the engine catches fire or explodes, so be it. China is much more diligent, does a lot more tests and verifications before putting an engine type into service. So for the J-10, we have been having a funny situation where the less reliable Russian engines get flown and the more reliable Chinese engines are on the ground going through bureaucratic processes.

Really, people are giving Russia too much credit. Russia didn't even designed the Al-31, she inherited it. Usability issues associated with Al-31 never got solved, and that kind of a hint that the Russians don't fully know what they are doing. Russia is actually behind, as she doesn't have the experience that China has in going from paper to a physical engine.
 
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Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
Really, people are giving Russia too much credit. Russia didn't even designed the Al-31, she inherited it. Usability issues associated with Al-31 never got solved, and that kind of a hint that the Russians don't fully know what they are doing. Russia is actually behind, as she doesn't have the experience that China has in going from paper to a physical engine.

Exactly we can rebute the argument of some member that the reliable operation of J11 series is due to dual engine by looking at the experience of other Su 30 operator . After all an accident is an accident whether it is single engine or not

India has atrocious engine malfunction with AL 31 and it is nothing to do with directional nozzle
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Thomas NewdickMar 277 min read

India’s New Fighters Have Serious Engine Problems
The SU-30MKIs constantly break down
by THOMAS NEWDICK

In the past decade, the Indian Air Force has bought hundreds of Su-30MKI fighter jets from Russia. Some of Moscow’s most advanced export fighters, the warplanes should have helped New Delhi strengthen its military.

But it turns out, the twin-engine jets have failure-prone motors. Their AL-31FP engines break down with alarming frequency.

In March, Indian defense minister Manohar Parrikar
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the propulsion problems.

There have been no fewer than 69 investigations involving engine failures since 2012, according to Parrikar. Between January 2013 and December 2014 alone, the Indian Air Force recorded 35 technical problems with the turbofans.

A shortfall in India’s Sukhoi fleet is a big deal. Especially at a time when India’s fighter squadrons are shrinking, and plans to induct the French Rafale fighter have stalled.
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The Su-30MKI remains the pride of the Indian Air Force. Russia’s Irkut Corporation initially supplied the jets, and today Hindustan Aeronautics Limited produces them under license.

It was on New Delhi’s behest that Russia revamped the Cold War-era Su-27 into this modern “superfighter,” with thrust-vectoring engines, canard foreplanes, a digital fly-by-wire flight control system, electronically scanned radar and air-to-ground weapons.

India had to wait until 2002 before it started to receive the Su-30MKI in the form it had originally requested. The Air Force is set to receive 272 Su-30MKIs.

India also bought 18 austere Su-30K fighters without the multi-role capabilities or thrust-vectoring engines.

Of the Su-30MKIs, Russia has delivered 50. HAL is producing the rest at its Nasik facility, where aircraft continue to roll off the line. With around 15 to 20 aircraft handed over every year, the current orders are set to finish around 2019 or 2020.

1*Q_zX-zEYDEFPAa4QANzmqQ.jpeg

Above and below — Indian Air Force Su-30 fighters. Wikimedia photos. At top — Indian Air Force Su-30MKIs perform at an air show. Irkut photo
So what exactly is wrong with the engines? We have a pretty good idea.

Parrikar attributed the failures to faulty bearings that contaminated the plane’s oil supply. It seems that metal fatigue led to tiny pieces of metal shearing off the friction-reducing bearings, which then entered the oil system.

This accounted for 33 of 69 engine failures.

Another 11 failures were the result of engine vibrations, while eight more arose from a lack of pressure in that same lubricating oil. New Delhi has not revealed the cause for the remaining 17 incidents.

The Air Force responded by taking the issue up with NPO Saturn, the Russian manufacturer. According to Parrikar, the company has come up with nine different modifications to help solve the problems.

India has already incorporated these “fixes” into 25 engines built at its plant in Koraput. In the future, the engines should benefit from an improved lubrication system, superior-quality oil and bearings that are a better fit.

However, a more general worry for the Air Force is the poor serviceability of the Su-30MKI fleet — meaning the number of aircraft actually available for operations on a daily basis.

Based on figures given by Parrikar, only 110 Su-30MKIs are “operationally available.” From a total of more than 200 aircraft that Irkut and HAL had delivered by February 2015, that means 56 percent are ready at any given time.

India’s Su-30MKI fleet has suffered five crashes since 2009.

To be sure, it’s not a great record, but it’s also not notably bad — especially when compared with the attrition rates of the Indian Air Force’s older fighters. It’s unclear what role, if any, the engine problems played in these accidents.

What’s perhaps more significant is the fact that engine deficiencies have bugged the Flanker from the start.

“The initial batch of 18 Su-30Ks and 10 Su-30MKIs were grounded as a result of engine issues, that were subsequently put down to design problems,” Indian
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Shiv Aroor wrote.
At the end of last year, the Air Force’s fighter
strength dipped to just 25 squadrons — its lowest in recent history. India has an officially sanctioned requirement for 42 fighter squadrons, and maintained 32 until recently.

As New Delhi withdraws its older MiG-21s and MiG-27s from service, the total number could fall to just 11 squadrons by 2024.

Casting an eye toward Pakistan and China, a parliamentary committee in New Delhi has argued that 45 fighter squadrons are the minimum India needs to cope with the demands of a “two-front collusive threat.”

Either way, that means India needs a lot of Su-30MKIs — and the jets have to work.


India wouldn’t have to worry as much about its Su-30MKI fleet if it managed to import fighters from elsewhere. For years, New Delhi has unsuccessfully tried to nail down a
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to buy 126 Rafale fighters from France.

Of these, Dassault Aviation would supply 18, while HAL would build the remainder. But despite announcements from both the French manufacturer and India, the deal is nowhere close to turning into reality.

As far as Moscow is concerned, the protracted Rafale deal has presented Russia with an opportunity to try and elbow the French out of the way, and sell yet more Su-30MKIs to India.
Indian officials have insisted that the Rafale is the only solution to its near-term fighter needs. But that changed at the turn of the year when Parrikar told reporters that an additional Su-30 buy could provide a solution — if negotiations with Paris were to terminally collapse.

The statement came as a surprise to the Air Force, which has long been wed to the Rafale, which it presents as the tailor-made solution to its fighter needs. On this occasion, the Air Force countered that the Su-30MKI and Rafale programs were indivisible, and fulfilled two different requirements.

But if the Sukhoi’s engine problems aren’t fixed soon, then this option might become less attractive. Perhaps as an insurance policy, Russia is now pushing India to buy its Su-35 — a more advanced, single-seat fighter based on the same Flanker airframe.

Regardless of what happens, the Russian-designed jet will have a place in the inventory for some time to come, despite its problems. There simply are lots of Su-30MKIs on order. India is also keen to pursue an upgrade for the jet, known as the Super 30.

This will add a new computer system and upgraded mission avionics, including an advanced active electronically-scanned array radar. Other changes will include revised countermeasure systems and “stealth” coatings to reduce radar signature.

New weapons will include the indigenous Astra air-to-air missile.

The 80-kilometer-range Astra was first successfully flight-tested from a Su-30MKI in May last year and destroyed a target drone this month. It was a good bit of PR for the Indian jet at a time when it needed it the most.

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While the Astra will eventually arm most Indian fighters, one other missile will likely remain the sole preserve of the Su-30MKI. The Sukhoi is currently the only Indian Air Force fighter able to lift the heavyweight Brahmos-A, an Indo-Russian supersonic cruise missile.

But let’s back up for a second. Why did Parrikar mention the Su-30MKI as a possible replacement for the Rafale if the negotiations collapse? He knows the Russian fighters have loads of problems — as does everyone else. So that doesn’t make any sense.

Unless … you want to scare India’s politicians enough to finally close the deal on the Rafale.
 

kwaigonegin

Colonel
Slightly OT... however I used to work for GE and they were VERY serious about applying Lean and 6 Sigma methodologies in their manufacturing process. It is basically a corporate culture. Jack Welch pretty much shoved Six Sigma down everyone throat who works there and it has proven to be effective.

This is even more so in GEA where almost every aspect of lean methodologies, processes and defect reduction were keenly applied to all facets of manufacturing.
It does make a qualitative difference in making good and reliable engines.
PW has similar corporate culture as well.

I like to know if companies like Shenyang Liming, Xian, Saturn NPO etc has such a robust program or something similar in place.
 

latenlazy

Brigadier
I like to know if companies like Shenyang Liming, Xian, Saturn NPO etc has such a robust program or something similar in place.
They're probably still figuring this bit out, but I think at least Chinese firms are broadly aware of the importance of organizational culture. When I was taking Chinese economic development while abroad, my professor told us that in partnerships with foreign firms the knowledge capital Chinese firms were most interested in acquiring wasn't technological but organizational. That transfer of organizational knowledge is the part of the foreign firm partnership strategy that China has had the most difficulty realizing, but when realized, it accounted for the biggest difference in firm performance. It turns out that China has been able to build technical expertise very quickly, but organizational expertise much more slowly. An absence of that understanding is why I think most people underestimate China's ability to develop and innovate new state of the art technologies, but overestimate their ability to deploy and scale those technologies (and I think we see this pattern in some key industries China is trying to break into, like aerospace and semiconductors).
 

A.Man

Major
WS-10, life expectancy 1500 hours

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本帖最后由 hswz 于 2014-11-14 12:40 编辑

太行涡扇10发动机中国战斗机的国产“心脏”
  羊城晚报记者 林丹
  太行发动机真行了?站在太行涡扇10旁的老董很肯定地点头:行了!
  太行涡扇10发动机是中国航空研究院606所的产品,老董是606所的参展人员,这几天他天天站在展馆,给感兴趣的专业和非专业人士答疑解惑。老董说,他从南京航空航天大学一毕业就参与了涡扇10的研制。
  涡扇10从1978年预研,1987年
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Blackstone

Brigadier
WS-10, life expectancy 1500 hours

TB1rRQpJXXXXXcvXXXXXXXXXXXX-40-26.png

本帖最后由 hswz 于 2014-11-14 12:40 编辑

太行涡扇10发动机中国战斗机的国产“心脏”
  羊城晚报记者 林丹
  太行发动机真行了?站在太行涡扇10旁的老董很肯定地点头:行了!
  太行涡扇10发动机是中国航空研究院606所的产品,老董是606所的参展人员,这几天他天天站在展馆,给感兴趣的专业和非专业人士答疑解惑。老董说,他从南京航空航天大学一毕业就参与了涡扇10的研制。
  涡扇10从1978年预研,1987年
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1500 hours compared with Russia's 4k hours and Western engines at about 6k hours. Credits for some progress, but still a long way to go.
 

manqiangrexue

Brigadier
WS-10, life expectancy 1500 hours

TB1rRQpJXXXXXcvXXXXXXXXXXXX-40-26.png

本帖最后由 hswz 于 2014-11-14 12:40 编辑

太行涡扇10发动机中国战斗机的国产“心脏”
  羊城晚报记者 林丹
  太行发动机真行了?站在太行涡扇10旁的老董很肯定地点头:行了!
  太行涡扇10发动机是中国航空研究院606所的产品,老董是606所的参展人员,这几天他天天站在展馆,给感兴趣的专业和非专业人士答疑解惑。老董说,他从南京航空航天大学一毕业就参与了涡扇10的研制。
  涡扇10从1978年预研,1987年
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Life expectancy 1500 or MTBO 1500? AL-31 came in at 900 MTBO and Chinese engineers were able to upgrade it to 1500.

Also, I don't see the number 1500 anywhere in your quote; even after I click into the link, I still don't see it. Are you sure?
 

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
1500 hours compared with Russia's 4k hours and Western engines at about 6k hours. Credits for some progress, but still a long way to go.

Where you get 4k MTBO out of your imagination?.The Su 30 will be lucky if they can get 1000hr
Even the best of western MTBO is no more than 3000 hr
Here is the article from

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Engine failures is fast becoming a major concern for Air Force and also puts a question mark on India's ability to defend its skies. Another problem area that senior Air Force officers point out is serviceability. "Serviceability of the aircraft is about 50 per cent only," an officer said. It means at any given time, roughly half out of a fleet of 200 jets are available for operational purposes. This becomes crucial in times of emergencies like war.

Mr Parrikar said that the engines were scheduled to be overhauled after every 1000 hours of flying, but the defects started showing-up after only 500 hours of flying. The minister said that Russia-based NPO Saturn, manufacturers of Su-30 Al-31FP engines, offered to make "nine technological improvements" during overhauls, and added that after the modifications the engines were flying for upto 900 hours.
 

Engineer

Major
1500 hours compared with Russia's 4k hours and Western engines at about 6k hours. Credits for some progress, but still a long way to go.
LOL!

If the Russians get lucky, they can get 4000 hours MTBO for the Al-31 by having the engine doing nothing but sitting statically on the ground. Chances are the parts in the engine will get stuck together by that point because of the issue prone lubricant system. May be that's what the Russians mean by MTBO, which is to replace the entire engine. Whereas everyone else uses a more reasonable and sane definition.
 

Blackstone

Brigadier
Where you get 4k MTBO out of your imagination?.The Su 30 will be lucky if they can get 1000hr
Even the best of western MTBO is no more than 3000 hr
Here is the article from

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Engine failures is fast becoming a major concern for Air Force and also puts a question mark on India's ability to defend its skies. Another problem area that senior Air Force officers point out is serviceability. "Serviceability of the aircraft is about 50 per cent only," an officer said. It means at any given time, roughly half out of a fleet of 200 jets are available for operational purposes. This becomes crucial in times of emergencies like war.

Mr Parrikar said that the engines were scheduled to be overhauled after every 1000 hours of flying, but the defects started showing-up after only 500 hours of flying. The minister said that Russia-based NPO Saturn, manufacturers of Su-30 Al-31FP engines, offered to make "nine technological improvements" during overhauls, and added that after the modifications the engines were flying for upto 900 hours.
WS-10 information in the above thread of 1500 hours was life expectancy and not MTBO. Attached is Wiki article on Russian engines life expectancy at 3k and 4k hours (MTBO around 1000 hours) for different engines. I don't remember where I read the article on 6k hours US engines, but it wasn't too long ago.

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