antiterror13
Brigadier
I don't think that's simple ... ex USSR engineers are very good but very specialised for certain area only. btw ... Chinese (and others, including the USA and EU) has been doing it anyway recruiting heaps of ex USSR engineers
Chinese Engine Development
- Thread starter jackbh
- Start date
I don't think that's simple ... ex USSR engineers are very good but very specialised for certain area only. btw ... Chinese (and others, including the USA and EU) has been doing it anyway recruiting heaps of ex USSR engineers
manqiangrexue
Brigadier
France is obligated not to sell China weapons technology under the ban that occurred as a result of the Tiananmen crackdown. If Snecma (does it make a suitable civilian engine? I don't even know) sold to China under a civilian only clause, those sales would end as soon as the engines showed up on military jets and you'd run out of suppliers pretty fast if you did that to GE and Snecma. China doesn't need these engines to run the Y-20; it needs the WS-20 on the Y-20. The point is, China's not trying to burn bridges in finding weasel ways to get foreign engines on its jets through a different trick for each batch; it's trying to develop a domestic engine to become self-sufficient in aircraft design. It also has no pressing need to upgrade the Russian stopgap engine.
Is it taking that long? From what I understand, jet engine technology is the most difficult technology in the world. WS-20 could only move forward after the WS-10(X) became successful since WS-20 uses experience gleaned from and even derives its core technology from that of the WS-10 series. How many years has it been since the WS-10 series was proven good enough? Not many, and WS-20 is already flying on a test-bed? I think that's not bad.
If China did recruit Russian and Ukrainian engineers, I doubt they could be so far behind. I mean China has to import the D-30 which is 1960s Soviet Technology. Plus aren't there plenty of Chinese engineers that have worked for GE, P&W , etc and could bring their know how back to China?
If China sweetens the deal enough, like promising to only buy Airbus planes, I bet the frenchies would be willing to divulge any technology and help China set up their own production. And this could help China with the Ws15 too, since the french have experience building the M88 for the rafale.
antiterror13
Brigadier
Well, it is not original D-30 engine, its D-30KP which is quite modern engine.
I don't think China is so far behind, only a few countries could produce better engine than China (The USA, Russia, the UK, French)
manqiangrexue
Brigadier
I think you're not too caught up on international norms. There have been several Chinese engineers that have brought technology back to China; some have succeeded and others are in jail. It's highly highly illegal and dangerous to do that. Even if you succeed, you probably have only brought a drop in the bucket because these companies all have mechanisms to stop people from knowing anything that's not necessary for them to do their very small, highly specialized niche job.
I doubt the French could help much on the WS-15 even if they wanted to since their M88 is 75kN and you're trying to make a 180+kN engine. You don't just make it bigger, you know, right?
Buy only Airbus? Do you know how ugly negotiations would get for each new batch of jets if Airbus dealers knew you were bound by an earlier agreement to only buy Airbus? That your entire nation's airlines would have to resort to using ships if you didn't sign their deal? Even then, NO, they wouldn't teach you how to make a jet because they know that once they taught you, they just slit their own throats. What would you ever buy from them again? Who would ever buy another Airbus if they knew the Chinese copy was the same, as good, and half price?
Airbus is already transferring technology-they have an assembly plant in China. Although many companies have measures to prevent technology theft, it didnt prevent some Pakistani engineer from stealing uranium enrichment tech. As for why companies would agree, well many companies are driven by short term profits. Just look at the international companies that jumped at the chance to transfer technology to build China's high speed railway. The French could help as it is areas such as quality control where China is lacking.
Please just stop. You are so clueless on this topic. This is going nowhere basically. China already has 2 engines developed for Y-20 and CFM-56 is not a consideration.
manqiangrexue
Brigadier
Yes, that's a single deal. Boeing has assembly lines in China as well. Assembly lines don't mean technology transfer but it does present a unique opportunity to learn something they didn't want you to. Even technology transfer is limited to a certain area, such as quality control up, and up to a certain sophistication, maybe a level under what the company considers its golden standard but still better than other ways. Tech transfer does not mean they will "to divulge any technology". Rest assured, the only way to get someone "to divulge any technology" is to either buy the company or hack shit out of them.
Some Jet Engine making Materials for anyone interested.
Part 1:
Raw Materials
The intake fan at the front of the engine must be extremely strong so that it doesn't fracture when large birds and other debris are sucked into its blades; it is thus made of a titanium alloy. The intermediate compressor is made from aluminum, while the high pressure section nearer the intense heat of the combustor is made of nickel and titanium alloys better able to withstand extreme temperatures. The combustion chamber is also made of nickel and titanium alloys, and the turbine blades, which must endure the most intense heat of the engine, consist of nickel-titanium-aluminum alloys. Often, both the combustion chamber and the turbine receive special ceramic coatings that better enable them to resist heat. The inner duct of the exhaust system is crafted from titanium, while the outer exhaust duct is made from composites—synthetic fibers held together with resins. Although fiberglass was used for years, it is now being supplanted by Kevlar, which is even lighter and stronger. The thrust reverser consists of titanium alloy.
Building components — fan blade
1 In jet engine manufacture, the various parts are made individually as part of subassemblies; the subassemblies then come together to form the whole engine. One such part is the fan blade, situated at the front of the engine. Each fan blade consists of two blade skins produced by shaping molten titanium in a hot press. When removed, each blade skin is welded to a mate, with a hollow cavity in the center. To increase the strength of the final product, this cavity is filled with atitanium honeycomb.
Compressor disc
2 The disc, the solid core to which the blades of the compressor are attached, resembles a big, notched wheel. It must be extremely strong and free of even minute imperfections, as these could easily develop into fractures under the tremendous stress of engine operation. For a long time, the most popular way to manufacture the disc entailed machine-cutting a metal blank into a rough approximation of the desired shape, then heating and stamping it to precise specifications (in addition to rendering the metal malleable, heat also helps to fuse hairline cracks). Today, however, a more sophisticated method of producing discs is being used by more and more manufacturers. Called powder metallurgy, it consists of pouring molten metal onto a rapidly rotating turntable that breaks the metal into millions of microscopic droplets that are flung back up almost immediately
Turbine blades are made by forming wax copies of the blades and then immersing the copies in a ceramic slurry bath. After each copy is heated to harden the ceramic and melt the wax, molten metal is poured into the hollow left by the melted wax.
A jet engine works by sucking air into one end, compressing it, mixing it with fuel and burning it in the combustion chamber, and then expelling it with great force out the exhaust system.
due to the table's spinning. As they leave the table, the droplets' temperature suddenly plummets (by roughly 2,120 degrees Fahrenheit—1,000 degrees Celsius—in half a second), causing them to solidify and form a fine-grained metal powder. The resulting powder is very pure because it solidifies too quickly to pick up contaminants.
3 In the next step, the powder is packed into a forming case and put into a vacuum. Vibrated, the powder sifts down until it is tightly packed at the bottom of the case; the vacuum guarantees that no air pockets develop. The case is then sealed and heated under high pressure (about 25,000 pounds per square inch). This combination of heat and pressure fuses the metal particles into a disc. The disc is then shaped on a large cutting machine and bolted to the fan blades.
Compressor blades
4 Casting, an extremely old method, is still used to form the compressor blades. In this process, the alloy from which the blades will be formed is poured into a ceramic mold, heated in a furnace, and cooled. When the mold is broken off, the blades are machined to their final shape.
Part 1:
Raw Materials
The intake fan at the front of the engine must be extremely strong so that it doesn't fracture when large birds and other debris are sucked into its blades; it is thus made of a titanium alloy. The intermediate compressor is made from aluminum, while the high pressure section nearer the intense heat of the combustor is made of nickel and titanium alloys better able to withstand extreme temperatures. The combustion chamber is also made of nickel and titanium alloys, and the turbine blades, which must endure the most intense heat of the engine, consist of nickel-titanium-aluminum alloys. Often, both the combustion chamber and the turbine receive special ceramic coatings that better enable them to resist heat. The inner duct of the exhaust system is crafted from titanium, while the outer exhaust duct is made from composites—synthetic fibers held together with resins. Although fiberglass was used for years, it is now being supplanted by Kevlar, which is even lighter and stronger. The thrust reverser consists of titanium alloy.
Building components — fan blade
1 In jet engine manufacture, the various parts are made individually as part of subassemblies; the subassemblies then come together to form the whole engine. One such part is the fan blade, situated at the front of the engine. Each fan blade consists of two blade skins produced by shaping molten titanium in a hot press. When removed, each blade skin is welded to a mate, with a hollow cavity in the center. To increase the strength of the final product, this cavity is filled with atitanium honeycomb.
Compressor disc
2 The disc, the solid core to which the blades of the compressor are attached, resembles a big, notched wheel. It must be extremely strong and free of even minute imperfections, as these could easily develop into fractures under the tremendous stress of engine operation. For a long time, the most popular way to manufacture the disc entailed machine-cutting a metal blank into a rough approximation of the desired shape, then heating and stamping it to precise specifications (in addition to rendering the metal malleable, heat also helps to fuse hairline cracks). Today, however, a more sophisticated method of producing discs is being used by more and more manufacturers. Called powder metallurgy, it consists of pouring molten metal onto a rapidly rotating turntable that breaks the metal into millions of microscopic droplets that are flung back up almost immediately
Turbine blades are made by forming wax copies of the blades and then immersing the copies in a ceramic slurry bath. After each copy is heated to harden the ceramic and melt the wax, molten metal is poured into the hollow left by the melted wax.
A jet engine works by sucking air into one end, compressing it, mixing it with fuel and burning it in the combustion chamber, and then expelling it with great force out the exhaust system.
due to the table's spinning. As they leave the table, the droplets' temperature suddenly plummets (by roughly 2,120 degrees Fahrenheit—1,000 degrees Celsius—in half a second), causing them to solidify and form a fine-grained metal powder. The resulting powder is very pure because it solidifies too quickly to pick up contaminants.
3 In the next step, the powder is packed into a forming case and put into a vacuum. Vibrated, the powder sifts down until it is tightly packed at the bottom of the case; the vacuum guarantees that no air pockets develop. The case is then sealed and heated under high pressure (about 25,000 pounds per square inch). This combination of heat and pressure fuses the metal particles into a disc. The disc is then shaped on a large cutting machine and bolted to the fan blades.
Compressor blades
4 Casting, an extremely old method, is still used to form the compressor blades. In this process, the alloy from which the blades will be formed is poured into a ceramic mold, heated in a furnace, and cooled. When the mold is broken off, the blades are machined to their final shape.