Chinese Economics Thread

[taxiya]

The biggest difference between China and the US today explains why China is taking over the global economy
Harrison Jacobs
Jun. 29, 2018, 04:09 PM

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has outpaced the US economically, according to a number of economic metrics.

• A Chinese professor who has lived in both the US and China believes there is a core cultural difference leading to the country's diverging paths.
• He believes Chinese people are fixated on economic advancement and business, while Americans are more focused on politics and personal freedoms.
• The difference has led Chinese people to be willing to work longer hours and spend more energy on entrepreneurial activities.

By numerous measures — and in particular

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taking into account relative prices of products — China has outpaced the US economically.

A top Chinese business professor who has spent considerable time in both countries believes that a major cultural difference between the countries may be fueling China's economic rise, he told Business Insider.

Dr. Zhang Weining, a

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, grew up in China, earned his MBA at Western Kentucky University in Bowling Green, Kentucky, and his PhD at the University of Texas in Dallas.

Zhang, who splits his time between the US and China, said that when he visits villages in rural China, the conversations he hears between villagers, farmers, and other people is about technology, business models, and artificial intelligence.

Meanwhile, when Zhang returns to his former homes in Kentucky or Texas, the dominant conversations both among academic circles and regular people is about the governor, the legislature, or hot button political topics of the day like gun control or abortion. The situation has only exacerbated in the Trump era.

"[Chinese people] only care about this: Who can be richer? What are the ways to get rich legally?," Zhang said. "We argue more about business models and new technology."

Zhang believes the American obsession with politics sucks up energy and time that Americans could spend working on new technologies or developing new businesses.

"When you are only arguing about politics, it does not help your life at all," Zhang said. "No one is paying you for that."

Zhang recognizes that political discussions happen in th US because so much of the culture is based around preserving personal freedom. But, he said, Chinese people are currently focused on a different kind of freedom: the freedom for economic development.

By way of example, Zhang points to the

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, or kuaidi, who zip around Chinese cities delivering packages, food, and just about every other convenience you can imagine. Most work 12-14 hours a day, six days a week.

"It's almost unimaginable in the US," said Zhang.

Journalists from the US often come to China and interview the couriers, many of whom are university graduates, about their labor rights. Many couriers lack the rights

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like overtime pay, workers' compensation benefits, or insurance in case of accidents.

But what those journalists fail to understand, Zhang went on, is that the couriers want the work, regardless of the long hours and the danger. Couriers can make as much as $2,000 a month after taxes — enough money in China to feed a large family and save for the future.

The obsession with economic advancement isn't limited to those in the service industry, Zhang said. It goes up the economic ladder. Middle class people in white collar jobs like tech and finance work crazy hours as well, either to chase their dreams or chase the status and respect of others, according to Zhang.

"Go visit Tencent's offices at 2 a.m. in the morning and see how many lights are still on and how many employees are still coming out," said Zhang. "All the young people in this country work overtime ... they think if everybody else is going to work eight hours, I'll work 10 hours. And if everyone else is going to work 10 hours, I'll work 12."

Take all of that energy and drive together, according to Zhang, and you have the answer as to why China is developing so much faster than the US right now.

Let's not always equate success with culture. Culture is important but far from critical. China had her downs (in the last two hundreds years) too, the west (US being part of it) has its golden ages too. One could (the west has and still do) use the China's down time and West up time to make the same claim of culture advantages just like this article is trying to do.

For one, the author is not as humble as what Chinese culture would shape him to do, but rather goes the same line as what the modern western superior-advocates do (I am superior than others). The author is a "westerner" within a Chinese shell IMO. The long time he spent in the US has transformed, changed and brainwashed him to think and speak like a westerner rather than a true Chinese. The only thing differentiate him is the subject (which culture).

I always believe in "be proud of oneself, but no need to step on others".

 

[plawolf]

If there is one key element to explain the speed at which China is catching up to the West, it is hubris. China doesn’t have it (yet), but the west has it in spades.

China has been able to advance so quickly because they are willing, eager even, to learn from the west, and take what works for the west and adapt it to also work for China.

The key part is that China isn’t mindlessly coping, as the west generally believes, but rather is selecting only the best elements of what makes the West succeed to study, to supplement, or even replace parts of the Chinese economic and technological model that doesn’t work as well.

The reverse does not happen much.

Overwhelmingly, the west goes out of its way to not do anything the same as China does. And anyone who dares to embrace Chinese ideas are marked as ‘unsound’.

Ironically, the more successful China becomes, the more entrenched western opposition to learning from China gets.

In many ways, the West, and especially the MSM and governments, seems to think it is fighting an ideological deathmatch with China, and that only ideological ‘purity’ will see them through to victory.

China sees it as a material battle. It doesn’t matter if the cat is black or white, all that matters is that it catches mice.

While the West is preoccupied with theologian-like obsession with intangibles like culture, soft power, rights and freedoms, China is busy making all the bases belong to China.

By buying into the western nonsense that culture matters above all else, it’s quite clear the author of that piece has fallen into the same trap as the west in trying to make arguments about how their success is ‘supposed to be’, or ‘ordained by destiny/ a higher power’.

That’s not the case and never will be. Only spoilt offspring who never had to earn the wealth their parents worked hard to hand down to them would think like this. Because it is an excuse to be lazy. I am special, I am the chosen one, success is preordained, so why do I have to work hard to earn it? That road leads to decay and disaster. China has been down that road, and so has no excuse not to know better!

The price of success and security is eternal vigilance, humility and plain hard work most of all.

One must never rest on one’s laurels, and must also never look down on a good idea simply because someone else had the audacity to have it first.

 

[Hendrik_2000]

Let's not always equate success with culture. Culture is important but far from critical. China had her downs (in the last two hundreds years) too, the west (US being part of it) has its golden ages too. One could (the west has and still do) use the China's down time and West up time to make the same claim of culture advantages just like this article is trying to do.

For one, the author is not as humble as what Chinese culture would shape him to do, but rather goes the same line as what the modern western superior-advocates do (I am superior than others). The author is a "westerner" within a Chinese shell IMO. The long time he spent in the US has transformed, changed and brainwashed him to think and speak like a westerner rather than a true Chinese. The only thing differentiate him is the subject (which culture).

I always believe in "be proud of oneself, but no need to step on others".

I don't see why not highlighting cultural difference is not crime. It is a fact that East Asian(Chinese , Japanese Korean) are hard worker. It is in their culture.

My cousin work in Japan and I visit him once and a while But he is always late in his office One day I also visit him in the office Guess what it is 9 o'clock in the evening and you can see from his office the opposite tower . The light is on and people are still working in the office

How do you explain that most successful countries in Asia are socalled "chopstick culture" countries irrespective of their economic or political differences
My Korean friend acknowledge this were it not Confucian value Korea will be just another Mongolia.
There is not need to be shy or evasive about it it is a fact!

 

[Hendrik_2000]

If there is one key element to explain the speed at which China is catching up to the West, it is hubris. China doesn’t have it (yet), but the west has it in spades.

China has been able to advance so quickly because they are willing, eager even, to learn from the west, and take what works for the west and adapt it to also work for China.

The key part is that China isn’t mindlessly coping, as the west generally believes, but rather is selecting only the best elements of what makes the West succeed to study, to supplement, or even replace parts of the Chinese economic and technological model that doesn’t work as well.

The reverse does not happen much.

Overwhelmingly, the west goes out of its way to not do anything the same as China does. And anyone who dares to embrace Chinese ideas are marked as ‘unsound’.

Ironically, the more successful China becomes, the more entrenched western opposition to learning from China gets.

In many ways, the West, and especially the MSM and governments, seems to think it is fighting an ideological deathmatch with China, and that only ideological ‘purity’ will see them through to victory.

China sees it as a material battle. It doesn’t matter if the cat is black or white, all that matters is that it catches mice.

While the West is preoccupied with theologian-like obsession with intangibles like culture, soft power, rights and freedoms, China is busy making all the bases belong to China.

By buying into the western nonsense that culture matters above all else, it’s quite clear the author of that piece has fallen into the same trap as the west in trying to make arguments about how their success is ‘supposed to be’, or ‘ordained by destiny/ a higher power’.

That’s not the case and never will be. Only spoilt offspring who never had to earn the wealth their parents worked hard to hand down to them would think like this. Because it is an excuse to be lazy. I am special, I am the chosen one, success is preordained, so why do I have to work hard to earn it? That road leads to decay and disaster. China has been down that road, and so has no excuse not to know better!

The price of success and security is eternal vigilance, humility and plain hard work most of all.

One must never rest on one’s laurels, and must also never look down on a good idea simply because someone else had the audacity to have it first.

I don;t agree with this care to explain why the successful countries in Asia is socalled "chopstick culture". It has nothing to do with hubris at all . We are stating a fact. like it or not
Definitely culture has something to do with. I can clearly see that with my own eye Chinese come to the south east asia with only clothing in their back. Yet within span of several generation they become dominant in the economy even though they are heavily restricted, discriminated

You can see it when you travel in South East Asia name it Thailand, Malaysia, Cambodia, Singapore, Phillipine
We both eat from the same rice and drink from the same water go to the same school .And yet different in result
How you explain that! Please!
People say because of colonial preference for the Chinese but Thailand was never colonized yet the same result

Even LKY comment on this he said Singapore will never reached the prosperity it enjoy now were it not Chinese form the majority group. Just look at Singapore and Malaysia borne from the same mother yet now Singapore is 3 X richer as Malaysia with all the advantages goes to Malaysia bigger land more mineral and mining wealth,etc

Degeneration happened because Chinese company try to keep the management within the family And yes some of the heir did squandered their wealth. But modern Chinese company now allow outsider to run company also

 

[Hendrik_2000]

Correction GDP percapita Singapore is 5 X Malaysia

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As to Chinese being arrogant or feel superior There is no such thing Chinese does not have idea of racial superiority Most Chinese in Thailand do inter marry with local so do in Philippine But not so much in Malaysia and Indonesia due to religion

 

[taxiya]

I don't see why not highlighting cultural difference is not crime. It is a fact that East Asian(Chinese , Japanese Korean) are hard worker. It is in their culture.

My cousin work in Japan and I visit him once and a while But he is always late in his office One day I also visit him in the office Guess what it is 9 o'clock in the evening and you can see from his office the opposite tower . The light is on and people are still working in the office

How do you explain that most successful countries in Asia are socalled "chopstick culture" countries irrespective of their economic or political differences
My Korean friend acknowledge this were it not Confucian value Korea will be just another Mongolia.
There is not need to be shy or evasive about it it is a fact!

All you are saying here is true, but only truly valid (to support some culture advantage) in the last 100 years or so. Korea was not successful before 1980s, Japan was behind the west before 1950s even after they westernized in the 1870s, and before that was backward compared with the west. China was not successful since the 1800s until recently.

It is a fact (today) that East Asians work longer and harder. But are you sure the westerners were "lazier" in the early 1900s and 1800s and 1700s than the contemporary East Asians? If so, how could they overtook East Asians back then?

How would you explain the west's overtaking of China in tech, science and industry since the 1700s? Isn't that western culture superiority if we subscribe to the author's argument?

To be humble is not to be shy or lack of self-esteem, it is the opposite, it is true self assured. It is about knowing one's own plus and minus, it is about knowing others. Without humbleness and cool head, one will be overly confident, and leads to downfall, pretty much like what happened to the later Qing dynasty thinking all the west were backward people.

Anybody regardless where and who will go down if he/she think for a moment that he/she has some sort of natural-born, inherited, God-given advantage over others. Remember that "history ended with the success of democracy" guy Francis Fukuyama? A western brainwashed Japanese declaring some sort of superiority of western culture just to be proven to be a puff in 20 years. Doesn't this author act in the same way, but only on an opposing ground? Learn from Fukuyama 's blunder will secure China's long lasting success, act like him will make China go down the path like the west is going today.

 

[Hendrik_2000]

All you are saying here is true, but only truly valid (to support some culture advantage) in the last 100 years or so. Korea was not successful before 1980s, Japan was behind the west before 1950s even after they westernized in the 1870s, and before that was backward compared with the west. China was not successful since the 1800s until recently.

It is a fact (today) that East Asians work longer and harder. But are you sure the westerners were "lazier" in the early 1900s and 1800s and 1700s than the contemporary East Asians? If so, how could they overtook East Asians back then?

How would you explain the west's overtaking of China in tech, science and industry since the 1700s? Isn't that western culture superiority if we subscribe to the author's argument?

To be humble is not to be shy or lack of self-esteem, it is the opposite, it is true self assured. It is about knowing one's own plus and minus, it is about knowing others. Without humbleness and cool head, one will be overly confident, and leads to downfall, pretty much like what happened to the later Qing dynasty thinking all the west were backward people.

Anybody regardless where and who will go down if he/she think for a moment that he/she has some sort of natural-born, inherited, God-given advantage over others. Remember that "history ended with the success of democracy" guy Francis Fukuyama? A western brainwashed Japanese declaring some sort of superiority of western culture just to be proven to be a puff in 20 years. Doesn't this author act in the same way, but only on an opposing ground? Learn from his blunder will secure China's long lasting success, act like him will make China go down the path like the west is going today.

You are talking to the wrong tree here As some one who grew up reading Goethe, Schiller, Kleist and Thomas Mann and visiting Opera house frequently. I know what European Culture is
In fact in my family my father teach us how to enjoy European cuisine from small on. As a group we are probably the most westernized Chinese just ask Advil or t2contra they know it

I don't deny that European work had too in the past But there this adage as soon as one enjoy the fruit of civilization the rot will start to set in. It happened with every civilization and coming from China you should know it

The west decline start with extensive socialization of cradle to grave wealth fare society Where you have least worry where is the next food come from. It is human achievement but it is discourage drive, ambition and competition. When I went to college in Europe there is only fail and pass mark no gradation at all. Add to that wrong allocation of resources exacerbate the problem

 

[taxiya]

You are talking to the wrong tree here As some one who grew up reading Goethe, Schiller, Kleist and Thomas Mann and visiting Opera house frequently. I know what European Culture is
In fact in my family my father teach us how to enjoy European cuisine from small on. As a group we are probably the most westernized Chinese just ask Advil or t2contra they know it

I don't deny that European work had too in the past But there this adage as soon as one enjoy the fruit of civilization the rot will start to set in. It happened with every civilization and coming from China you should know it

The west decline start with extensive socialization of cradle to grave wealth fare society Where you have least worry where is the next food come from. It is human achievement but it is discourage drive, ambition and competition. When I went to college in Europe there is only fail and pass mark no gradation at all. Add to that wrong allocation of resources exacerbate the problem

First of all, I know nothing, or do nothing like in the highlighted texts in the first paragraph. Actually, I don't know who they are, nor what they did. So I don't have so much mentality, culture or psychological influence from the west. To be honest, much less than you. All I am familiar with the west are materialistic, such as tech, science, military, industry and history (not the right or wrong part which is culture related, but the fact part).

Second of all, the rest highlighted texts you just said is what I am saying all this time. By saying "it happened with every civilization" you are acknowledging that China will face the same problem/challenge as the west some time, which is what I was saying (the west and China both had ups and downs). This is exactly the kind of mistake that the article seemed to make that is "some culture is guaranteed certain success". If you admit the downfall of the west (today) is due to its "cradle to grave, achievement", then you must admit that it is not due to an "inferior" culture, after all social welfare is far from being part of culture, China had that too before 1980s, that led China's almost broke. Is that then failure of Chinese culture? Certainly not, then why would these things become proof of western's culture's shortcoming today? Wasn't China extremely political in the 1960s and 1970s? More so than the west?

To reinterate, all I want to say is that

1. There is no culture supremacy that contribute to the success
2. Culture itself is just another product of human economy activity.
3. Therefor, every culture has its ups and downs, pros and cons. That applies equally on China and any other culture. China is not exception.

Remember, there is a country right now thinking it is unique and exceptional, it is where the author lives right now. The author should think again if there is truly exceptional culture by just look around himself. His flattering China does not make him right, nor does it help China (but rather opposite), and I totally object that.

 

[plawolf]

I don;t agree with this care to explain why the successful countries in Asia is socalled "chopstick culture". It has nothing to do with hubris at all . We are stating a fact. like it or not
Definitely culture has something to do with. I can clearly see that with my own eye Chinese come to the south east asia with only clothing in their back. Yet within span of several generation they become dominant in the economy even though they are heavily restricted, discriminated

You can see it when you travel in South East Asia name it Thailand, Malaysia, Cambodia, Singapore, Phillipine
We both eat from the same rice and drink from the same water go to the same school .And yet different in result
How you explain that! Please!
People say because of colonial preference for the Chinese but Thailand was never colonized yet the same result

Even LKY comment on this he said Singapore will never reached the prosperity it enjoy now were it not Chinese form the majority group. Just look at Singapore and Malaysia borne from the same mother yet now Singapore is 3 X richer as Malaysia with all the advantages goes to Malaysia bigger land more mineral and mining wealth,etc

Degeneration happened because Chinese company try to keep the management within the family And yes some of the heir did squandered their wealth. But modern Chinese company now allow outsider to run company also

Culture isn’t a pick and mix, it is the whole set of defining characteristics, both good and bad, that makes a people distinctive beyond their language or race.

Even as short as a few decades ago, if one were ask to list the top 10 defining characteristics of Chinese culture, they could come up with a list that is significantly different to how the list would go now. And if one were to do the same exercise a few decades from now, I would bet the list would be much different again.

China has let go of a lot of bad cultural characteristics in that time. Blind obedience and worship of elders and ancestors; oppression and exclusion of women; a lot of superstition and religion; the class system etc.

Some good characteristics were also lost along the way, but the point is that Chinese culture today is largely dynamic and changing.

It is that willingness to make the hard changes, to give up that which seemed sacrosanct but which was not working and embrace something new, that has helped to get China to where it is today as fast as it has.

The reason the West is declining now is for the same reason China declined in the late Qing Dynasty - through hubris, they felt they have achieved ‘perfection’, so rather than making the necessary changes to adapt and continue to succeed in a changing world, they are increasingly concerned with stopping change or even reversing them to make things the way they were ‘in the good old days’.

Rather than see their decline as a failure to adapt, they see it as a result of deviation from the original ‘perfection’ they previously achieved.

In ancient China, sons and grandsons blindly followed the instructions on how to operate machines invented by their ancestors. Machines that they themselves no longer understand, never mind could reproduct or improving upon.

In the west today, you have traditionalists blaming gays, migrants, women in the workplace, pretty much everyone and everything under the sun that is different from the world of their parents or grandparents as the cause of their decline.

That is the danger with giving undue credit to ‘culture’. That you end up worshiping a snapshot in time and trying to freeze society’s development and advancement to match your ‘perfect’ snapshot. So end up following principles and traditions that are no longer effective or even valid in the rapidly changing world.

I also take exception to any culture or religion trying to take ownership of and credit for universally recognised and practiced virtuous human characteristics.

Americans don’t own innovation anymore than Chinese owns hard work.

There are a lot of factors that help Chinese do better than most other migrant communities in foreign countries. But it is both wrong and insulting to suggest only Chinese work hard; or that success is somehow guaranteed as a birthright. There are plenty of Chinese who don’t do well in foreign lands. It is inaccurate and dangerous to point to only the success cases and extrapolate that to the entire population as evidence of ‘cultural superiority’. That way leads to the dark side!

 

[Hendrik_2000]

Culture isn’t a pick and mix, it is the whole set of defining characteristics, both good and bad, that makes a people distinctive beyond their language or race.

Even as short as a few decades ago, if one were ask to list the top 10 defining characteristics of Chinese culture, they could come up with a list that is significantly different to how the list would go now. And if one were to do the same exercise a few decades from now, I would bet the list would be much different again.

China has let go of a lot of bad cultural characteristics in that time. Blind obedience and worship of elders and ancestors; oppression and exclusion of women; a lot of superstition and religion; the class system etc.

Some good characteristics were also lost along the way, but the point is that Chinese culture today is largely dynamic and changing.

It is that willingness to make the hard changes, to give up that which seemed sacrosanct but which was not working and embrace something new, that has helped to get China to where it is today as fast as it has.

The reason the West is declining now is for the same reason China declined in the late Qing Dynasty - through hubris, they felt they have achieved ‘perfection’, so rather than making the necessary changes to adapt and continue to succeed in a changing world, they are increasingly concerned with stopping change or even reversing them to make things the way they were ‘in the good old days’.

Rather than see their decline as a failure to adapt, they see it as a result of deviation from the original ‘perfection’ they previously achieved.

In ancient China, sons and grandsons blindly followed the instructions on how to operate machines invented by their ancestors. Machines that they themselves no longer understand, never mind could reproduct or improving upon.

In the west today, you have traditionalists blaming gays, migrants, women in the workplace, pretty much everyone and everything under the sun that is different from the world of their parents or grandparents as the cause of their decline.

That is the danger with giving undue credit to ‘culture’. That you end up worshiping a snapshot in time and trying to freeze society’s development and advancement to match your ‘perfect’ snapshot. So end up following principles and traditions that are no longer effective or even valid in the rapidly changing world.

I also take exception to any culture or religion trying to take ownership of and credit for universally recognised and practiced virtuous human characteristics.

Americans don’t own innovation anymore than Chinese owns hard work.

There are a lot of factors that help Chinese do better than most other migrant communities in foreign countries. But it is both wrong and insulting to suggest only Chinese work hard; or that success is somehow guaranteed as a birthright. There are plenty of Chinese who don’t do well in foreign lands. It is inaccurate and dangerous to point to only the success cases and extrapolate that to the entire population as evidence of ‘cultural superiority’. That way leads to the dark side!

Of course culture change over time no one denying it But the basic tenet of the culture does not change over time You are alluding to all the bad thing in China and blame it to the culture
It has nothing to do with culture it is misinterpretation of what is valued in Confucian ethic
So it has nothing to do with culture It has more to do with corruption of the culture

No China does not decline because of Hubris It just failed to modernize there are many who advocating modernism like the Kang You Wei movement but the system of absolute power in the hand of the emperor does not allow it to change. In contrast to Japan where power is more or less distributed among the daimyo lord

Of course there are poor chinese in SEA but for the majority the living standard of Chinese is way better than the native . There is no Chinese beggar in South East Asia I never see one.
I never said that the native are lazy As you said there are many factor that contribute to Chinese success in SEA and one of them is culture

Think of it the colonial power that encourage Chinese immigration to SEA Why? because their motive actually is to trade and administer the colony. They can't get their own people to come because of primitive condition and malaria at that time So they stuck
Until they get the idea to import the Chinese because they believe the Chinese has the natural talent for trade since trade is long tradition in China

Sure enough Chinese become the middle man collecting agriculture resource and distributing day to day necessity to the native and provide the civil servant corp. At the same time they erect the barrier preventing mixing between native and Chinese