Chinese Economics Thread

AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
Would you be recommending such an approach to the CCP? This would be a win win for the CCP for being more accommodative but in effect doesn't carry any downside as per your reasoning.

You mean like how everyone is suppose to follow Western values and lifestyle yet is the most polluting and wasteful of all. That's why Western countries pollute more per capita. That doesn't carry any downside? I can bring a whole lot more serious examples but we know that crosses the lines here. Ironic.
 

Brumby

Major
Could you explain how you arrived at this conclusion?

What is the common gripe about Wall Street? That it gamed the system, behold itself with ill gotten wealth, and too big to fail. What do you think the population size of Wall Street is that would fit into this description? Now compare it to the membership size of the CCP which is approx. 8o plus million; the size of the Chinese NPL and the constant recapitalization (too big to fail); and guess who are the elites who benefited and their contributory percentage in this wealth composition?
 

Brumby

Major
You mean like how everyone is suppose to follow Western values and lifestyle yet is the most polluting and wasteful of all. That's why Western countries pollute more per capita. That doesn't carry any downside? I can bring a whole lot more serious examples but we that crosses the lines here. Ironic.

I guess you got caught in your own logic.
 

Brumby

Major
I think the rise in inequality associated with the rise in China's overall wealth was very much a story that resulted from the growth of the late 90s and the 2000s -- whether the rise of the middle class is also associated with a rise in inequality since the late 2000s onwards to now and the future is another matter.

I'm interested in what the latest Gini coefficient will say for China... I've been doing some searching lately and a few places have said that wealth distribution may have seen some improvements recently.
That said, I'd be interested in seeing how the other major institutions rank it in coming months and years... and different publications calculate Gini differently (and also differences in defining "middle class" such as the difference between the Allianz definition and the Credit Suisse)

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China tops for middle class, latest Allianz global wealth report says
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| OCTOBER 7, 2015 4:31 AM | UPDATED 1:30 PM

China's emergence as an economic powerhouse has left the country accounting for more than half of the global middle class, on the back of broad gains that have offset rises in income inequality elsewhere, said the latest annual global wealth report by Allianz SE.

The Allianz Global Wealth Report 2015 at the close of 2014, China had roughly 570 million people in the middle class — defined by Allianz as people with net financial assets, including bank deposits, securities, insurance and pension funds, but not real estate, of between €6,100 ($6,837) and €36,700.

That would be almost three-fifths of a global middle class that Allianz said topped 1 billion people for the first time at the end of 2014.

Arne Holzhausen, an economist with Allianz and one of the authors of the 2015 wealth report, in a telephone interview called China's “amazing story” the driving force behind the rise in the fortunes of the global middle class in recent years.

The report showed net financial wealth of all private households around the globe topping €100 trillion or the first time at the end of 2014.

The middle class's share of that wealth stood at roughly 17%, up 10 percentage points from 7% at the turn of the century, said Mr. Holzhausen. Over that same 14-year period, the share of the “wealth upper class” dropped to 80% from 92%, the report noted.

The widespread distribution of China's growing wealth stands in contrast to rising inequality in the U.S., with the report showing the U.S. Gini coefficient, a measure of wealth distribution, at a samplehigh of roughly 85%, up four percentage points since the turn of the century and well above the global average for 2014 of under 65%.

By contrast, China's Gini coefficient stood at 52.23%, the lowest of 16 countries from Asia and Latin America the report sampled.

The report also noted that the combined financial wealth of China's citizens topped that of Japan for the first time.

The wealth distribution trends of the past 14 years in China, the U.S. and elsewhere won't necessarily continue, said Mr. Holzhausen. With income inequality under a spotlight now in the U.S., the current moment might prove the “high point of inequality” there, he said. Meanwhile, the slowdown of China's economy now could likewise slow the spread of wealth there, he said.

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The full Allianz global wealth report is here:
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Gini is about inequality of distribution. You then have China with approx. 100 million in so called middle bracket but relative to a 1.3 billion base. That means a very pointed top relative to Gini. When you consider all are equal except some are more equal and that essentially is the CCP. Would you like to take a stab at what percentage of this 100 million middle bracket are CCP members?
 

Blitzo

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What is the common gripe about Wall Street? That it gamed the system, behold itself with ill gotten wealth, and too big to fail. What do you think the population size of Wall Street is that would fit into this description? Now compare it to the membership size of the CCP which is approx. 8o plus million; the size of the Chinese NPL and the constant recapitalization (too big to fail); and guess who are the elites who benefited and their contributory percentage in this wealth composition?

If you're suggesting many of the middle class and upper class are part of the CCP, I think some statistical investigations would be useful first.


Gini is about inequality of distribution.

I'm well aware of what the gini coefficient is.

You then have China with approx. 100 million in so called middle bracket but relative to a 1.3 billion base. That means a very pointed top relative to Gini.

Not so simple, because wealth brackets determine wealth in a categorical way rather than continuous way, which is how wealth should be measured.
That said, I am merely repeating the reported recent Gini coefficients for China from various sources, if you choose to reject them or challenge them that is fine by me, but don't shoot the messenger.


When you consider all are equal except some are more equal and that essentially is the CCP. Would you like to take a stab at what percentage of this 100 million middle bracket are CCP members?

As I said above, I think some stats would be useful in this regard. Considering the sheer size of the CCP and that only a fraction of them are in a position to truly abuse power in any meaningful way, a stab would be quite difficult to make, as I'd have to estimate how many of those in positions of power would abuse it and to what extent, etc, and then compensate as to how many of them earned their wealth through means without abusing power (that is to say, they just happen to be CCP members despite being wealthy).

There are also some quite differing definitions of what exactly being middle class constitutes.
 
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Blitzo

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And just to add to the controversy....

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Credit Suisse Wealth Report: There Are More Poor People In America Than China

This is a wonderfully counter intuitive finding from the new Credit Suisse Wealth Report. There’re more poor people in America than there are in China. No, really, this is true, when measuring by wealth. We’ve not got the detailed number of the United States alone as they’re offering the information by region. But Canada’s population size means that we don’t have to worry about that very much (sorry, Canadians). To a reasonable level of accuracy there’s no one in China in the bottom 10% of the world’s population by wealth. And yet there’s some 10% of those global poor in North America, and another 20% or so in Europe. So, yes, it really is true that there’re more poor people in America (and Europe) than there are in China.

Which, when you think about it, is really very odd indeed. Because China has more people than those two other regions put together and it’s also much poorer than those two regions put together. So, we really would think that there’re more poor people in China than there are in the United States. So what’s causing this? Inequality? The impositions of the capitalist plutocracy? Something that Bernie or Hillary can sort out for us?

No, it’s that the US and Europe have developed financial and banking systems, in a manner which most of the rest of the world doesn’t really, at least not yet. Here’s the fun chart:
creditsuisseweatlhreport.png


As you can see, America (again, this is the US plus Canada) has some 10% of the poorest people in the world and also some 30% of the richest.Europe has (by eye) perhaps 20% of the world’s poorest people and 35% of the richest (there’s more people in Europe). And China has pretty much none of the world’s poorest people and say 7 or 8% of the world’s richest.

Yet we know very well that America and Europe are very much richer than China. So, what’s going on? Is it all just that the wealth is being taken by the plutocrats in our deeply unfair and unequal societies? No, it isn’t. Because we’ve got to understand what this number actually is. It is wealth, not income. And it is also net wealth, that is the value of all assets minus the value of all debts. As the report makes clear:

"To determine how global wealth is distributed
across households and individuals – rather than
regions or countries – we combine our data on the
level of household wealth across countries with
information on the pattern of wealth distribution
within countries. Once debts have been subtracted,
a person needs only USD 3,210 to be among the
wealthiest half of world citizens in mid-2015.
However, USD 68,800 is required to be a member
of the top 10% of global wealth holders, and
USD 759,900 to belong to the top 1%. While the
bottom half of adults collectively own less than 1%
of total wealth, the richest decile holds 87.7% of
assets, and the top percentile alone accounts for
half of total household wealth."

So, you need $3,000 or so to be in the top half of the world’s wealthy people. And $70,000 or so to be in the top 10%. In pretty much all of Europe and America this means that anyone who has paid off their mortgage is in the top 10%. And anyone with a reasonable private pension would be too.

So, how do we end up with all those poor people, poor in wealth that is, in those rich countries? Because of this:

If you’ve no debts and have $10 in your pocket you have more wealth than 25% of Americans. More than that 25% of Americans have collectively that is.

It is possible to have negative wealth. To have debts that are greater than your assets. But this is only possible in a reasonably advanced society, where there’s a financial and banking system that will lend to people without assets. And that’s what that negative wealth is. Part of the financial life cycle rather than evidence of great poverty. For example, that newly minted Harvard graduate, carrying perhaps $150k of debt and now coining it on Wall Street as a junior analyst would be counted, in this wealth measurement, as being in those poorest 10% of the world. Those poor people in India and Africa aren’t poor in this same manner. They’re the people standing there with their labour and the clothes on their back and nothing else. But the people in the rich countries who are in that bottom 10 and 20% of the world’s wealth distribution are simply people with more debt than assets. And the reason there’re no Chinese in there is because the Chinese financial system doesn’t work that way. Mortgages, student loans and so on pretty much don’t exist: so there’s no one with negative wealth.

Which is how we get to those numbers. And then we have to acknowledge that these numbers are all entirely wrong. Not because Credit Suisse has made a mistake: they are following the accepted definitions all the way through. It’s that those accepted definitions themselves are wrong. Because we only count financial wealth and we only count some kinds of it. Housing wealth (equity, so house value minus any mortgage), financial assets (stocks and bonds etc), other assets (furniture etc) and private pension savings. We are not including, for example, any valuation of future Social Security benefits. Nor any value of human capital: that Harvard degree (if it was in, say, puppetry) might not be worth what was paid for it but it’s worth something. Nor what is the greatest source of wealth for everyone in the developed countries: that happenstance that we were born into developed countries. Countries where if we go broke the children will still get educated, we’ll still get medical care, food, shelter and all the rest: the value, in short, of being a citizen of a country with a developed welfare

And that value is significant. It’s pretty much impossible to do a net present value calculation of the future stream of income from that welfare state, if we should need it, and think that it’s anything less than $100,000 of contingent at least wealth. Meaning that to be accurate we would have to say that absolutely no one in the rich countries, bar someone not yet discharged from bankruptcy, is outside the top 10% (or, given that this would change the deciles themselves 20% or so) of the wealth distribution. Simply because if it all goes horribly, disastrously, wrong, we’ll still be getting some thousands a year from the welfare system. An amount that would already put us into the top 50% of the global income distribution (actually, just that $29 a week of the average food stamp, or SNAP, payment, puts you into the top 50% of the global income distribution).

So, the correct answer is that there’s simply no poor people in America or Europe, even though the way we measure wealth means that it appears that there’re more poor people in those two places than there are in China.
 

Brumby

Major
If you're suggesting many of the middle class and upper class are part of the CCP, I think some statistical investigations would be useful first.




I'm well aware of what the gini coefficient is.



Not so simple, because wealth brackets determine wealth in a categorical way rather than continuous way, which is how wealth should be measured.
That said, I am merely repeating the reported recent Gini coefficients for China from various sources, if you choose to reject them or challenge them that is fine by me, but don't shoot the messenger.




As I said above, I think some stats would be useful in this regard. Considering the sheer size of the CCP and that only a fraction of them are in a position to truly abuse power in any meaningful way, a stab would be quite difficult to make, as I'd have to estimate how many of those in positions of power would abuse it and to what extent, etc, and then compensate as to how many of them earned their wealth through means without abusing power (that is to say, they just happen to be CCP members despite being wealthy).

There are also some quite differing definitions of what exactly being middle class constitutes.

You know some statistics are probably not possible to get or are conveniently considered state secrets. My point is simply that there are always other ways to tell a story and may be unpleasant for some. I do not intend to engage in a long conversion as before because past experience tells me it becomes non productive quickly.

Some of the statistics I have seen :
About 60% of China’s fixed assets are owned by the state.

A study published in 2008 reported that 34% of private entrepreneurs are now members of the Party, up from 19% in 2000.

More than 30 of the largest 35 listed companies on the Shanghai Stock Exchange are majority owned by the state and state-controlled entities.

The Chinese economist Fan Gang believed that illegal capital flight perpetrated by officials in 2000 was almost US$50 billion, more than the entire amount of formal capital inflows into the country in that year, which was US$41 billion.

An official study actually estimates that from 1990–02, almost 70 million farmers had their land seized illegally or in return for inadequate compensation.

You have made your point and I have made mine.
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
You know some statistics are probably not possible to get or are conveniently considered state secrets. My point is simply that there are always other ways to tell a story and may be unpleasant for some. I do not intend to engage in a long conversion as before because past experience tells me it becomes non productive quickly.

Some of the statistics I have seen :
About 60% of China’s fixed assets are owned by the state.

A study published in 2008 reported that 34% of private entrepreneurs are now members of the Party, up from 19% in 2000.

More than 30 of the largest 35 listed companies on the Shanghai Stock Exchange are majority owned by the state and state-controlled entities.

The Chinese economist Fan Gang believed that illegal capital flight perpetrated by officials in 2000 was almost US$50 billion, more than the entire amount of formal capital inflows into the country in that year, which was US$41 billion.

An official study actually estimates that from 1990–02, almost 70 million farmers had their land seized illegally or in return for inadequate compensation.

You have made your point and I have made mine.

So in other words, you have a hypothesis and a few pieces of information which possibly suggest that a statistically meaningful portion of the upper class and middle class are CCP members, but no way to test it or even get near to quantifying it, apart from being able to confidently say that some CCP members with wealth would have taken it through means of abuse of power.

The nature of statistics is that one can twist it to suit their needs... and that goes both ways.
 

Brumby

Major
So in other words, you have a hypothesis and a few pieces of information which possibly suggest that a statistically meaningful portion of the upper class and middle class are CCP members, but no way to test it or even get near to quantifying it, apart from being able to confidently say that some CCP members with wealth would have taken it through means of abuse of power.

The nature of statistics is that one can twist it to suit their needs... and that goes both ways.
True. What was the source that created this conversation? Some posters drawing rather strong views from a survey. As I said, there are more than one way to tell a story.
 
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