Chinese Economics Thread

Blackstone

Brigadier
Not saying that china is going to colapse, but regarding prices going down in china because of stock market crash, perhabs you should look at this article:

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


In the end, it is mentioned that everyone staring at their screens in the trading floor was dumbfounded. Perhabs that is one of the reasons why the chinese government was very determined to stop the stock market crash.
China's first venture in semi-open market is going through growing pains, made worse by businesses' speculatively investments by borrowing against their own assets. China is learning how risky and painful the road from infant to mature stock market can be. On the flip side, the bloodletting is mostly on the elites and not on the "little guys," so the market correction will have little effect on consumer spending. That's not to say some pensioners and ordinary investors didn't get badly hurt, but most of the losses were from SOEs and financial elites. In addition, traditional Chinese corporate strategy based on long-term management is colliding with short-term gains/losses of the semi-open stock market, and it will change Chinese company management in many way. We're in for an interesting ride, and China will be different because of it.
 
Last edited:

manqiangrexue

Brigadier
Not saying that china is going to colapse, but regarding prices going down in china because of stock market crash, perhabs you should look at this article:

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


In the end, it is mentioned that everyone staring at their screens in the trading floor was dumbfounded. Perhabs that is one of the reasons why the chinese government was very determined to stop the stock market crash.
To be honest, I'm no expert on economics. I can read one article that says a certain event is going to lead to economic collapse and read another that says the same event is a routine adjustment and not know which to believe... if it weren't for history. From as far back as I can remember, I have read articles saying China's economy will collapse; some have set dates while others have labelled it as an eventuality (which means nothing since anyone could say anything will happen "eventually" and never be proven wrong). But each and every time, through each and every danger, from inflation to rebellion, China has pulled through while growing spectacularly. That is why I don't buy these articles; I just look at annual growth trends. And that is why when I heard about China's supposed stock market "collapse", I didn't have to read 200 articles on it to see what everyone thought; I just looked at the 3 month, 6 month, 1 year, and 5-year trends, and I knew this is no catastrophe at all.
 

Janiz

Senior Member
On the flip side, the bloodletting is mostly on the elites and not on the "little guys," so the market correction will have little effect on consumer spending.
I don't know where you got the informations about those who lost their money but in the world it works like the rich get richer and poor get poorer in those situations. Every bubble is created by the big fishes and when they got their money, they took off while they could with all the assests they could use. That's how this world works and China isn't an exception.
 

Blackstone

Brigadier
I don't know where you got the informations about those who lost their money but in the world it works like the rich get richer and poor get poorer in those situations. Every bubble is created by the big fishes and when they got their money, they took off while they could with all the assests they could use. That's how this world works and China isn't an exception.
The saying goes "bulls make money, bears make money, pigs get slaughtered," and the little guys are often pigs. However, in the recent Shanghai stock crash, it seems the well-off took most of the loses.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

NEW YORK (Reuters) - As the Chinese stock market free-fall shows no signs of stopping, some U.S.-based fund managers said the government's effort to prop up stock values is having the opposite effect, even as some buy at what they consider panic-driven prices.

The Shanghai Composite Index has tumbled by 32 percent since mid-June, wiping out about $3 trillion in market value and ending a rally that had previously seen the market double from its June 2014 low. In response, Beijing has cut interest rates and stopped the trading of thousands of stocks, preventing some shareholders from selling their positions in hopes of ending the downturn.

The measures have instead helped spread the rout to the Hong Kong-based Hang Seng index, whose listings of so-called H share companies are largely owned by foreign investors and trade at lower valuations, fund managers said.

"You've had some misguided efforts to cushion the selloff and that's ultimately led to the unintended consequence of making the situation worse," said Charles Wilson, co-portfolio manager of the $2 billion Thornburg Developing World fund who has been adding to his positions in Chinese consumer, internet and utility stocks over the last few days of the selloff.

The Hang Seng index fell 5.8 percent Wednesday, its biggest decline so far this year. The index is still up 5.8 percent for the year to date, while the Shanghai index is up 16.7 percent over the same time.

Reuters contacted several prominent mutual fund managers, including the $8.7 billion T Rowe Price Emerging Markets Stock fund, the $1 billion Columbia Global Equity Value fund, and the $76 million Morgan Stanley Global Opportunity fund, who all declined to comment. It's the widest selloff in China, home of the world's second biggest economy, since the global financial crisis of 2008.

While it is unclear what will happen when Chinese markets resume full trading, most fund managers and analysts expect there to be further losses as sell orders move through the market.

Beijing has moved to curb new listings and extracted promises from fund managers and brokerages to buy at least $19 billion in stocks to provide support for blue chip shares. In addition, the China Securities Finance Corp, the country's official margin lender for brokerages, has raised its capital base to 100 billion yuan ($16.1 billion) from 24 billion yuan, in order to stabilize markets.

On Wednesday night in China, the securities regulator ordered shareholders with stakes of more than 5 percent from selling shares for the next six months in a bid to halt the plunge in stock prices.

OUTLOOK DEPENDS ON BEIJING
While U.S. investors say that they remain largely bullish that consumer spending will expand and the fallout from the stock market crisis will be limited to the relatively small upper class of speculators that own A shares, every portfolio manager interviewed by Reuters noted that additional policy changes by Beijing could alter their outlook.

At the same time, fund managers like Wilson say the volatility and selloff is making the Chinese market more attractive for long-term investors, even if the market has not hit bottom yet.

Emily Alejos, portfolio manager of the $20.8 million Nuveen Tradewinds Emerging Markets fund, noted that companies that focus on domestic consumption in the country are trading at enticing prices.

"For a long-term investor, some of these valuations [in H shares] are quite compelling," she said, adding that the steep declines are not affecting her outlook for the Chinese economy because the losses in wealth among the relatively small percentage of Chinese who own stocks are not likely to dent the country's expected GDP growth of 7 percent.

Frederick Jiang, co-manager of the $724 million Ivy Emerging Markets Equity fund, echoed that sentiment.

"If you look at the Chinese market, it's a bipolar market with the high growth A shares trading at very expensive valuations and the H shares trading below 10. It's probably the cheapest major market in the world," he said.

Jiang, whose fund has large positions in the H shares of Chinese companies including Fosun International and Bank of China Ltd, said that he did not see any evidence that the booming stock market affected personal consumption levels in China apart from housing prices in major cities and thus expects the effect of the market decline on spending to be muted.

High levels of margin trading coupled with a frenzy among Chinese investors for A shares — those small and mid-cap companies whose ownership is largely restricted to domestic owners — sent valuations above 50 times earnings this year. H shares, by comparison, trade at approximately 10 times earnings.

To be sure, finding true price to earnings ratios and other valuation metrics for Chinese companies can be difficult given the scant accounting laws and other forms of investor protection

Stretched margin levels are one reason why Robert Bao, portfolio manager of the $2 billion Fidelity China Region Fund, is most worried about China's brokerage sector.

"What does this mean to their earnings and balance sheets?" Bao said. "And they're very levered to the stock market."

Yu Zhang, lead manager of the $5.9 billion Matthew Asia Dividend fund, said that the market decline could lead to more monetary easing in China, which in turn would boost the appeal of high-dividend paying stocks such as insurance companies.

"We're not sure how long this volatile period will last, but to me the medium- to long-term outlook for China is still trending up," he said.security guard watches a screen showing newly-elected General Secretary of the Central Committee of the Communist Party of China (CPC) Xi Jinping speaking during a news conference, in front of an electronic board showing stock information at a brokerage house in Huaibei, Anhui province November 15, 2012.

POPULAR BET
The market plunge comes at a time when China had become an increasingly popular option for both retail and professional investors in the US.

Retail investors have sent $3.4 billion to China-focused mutual funds and ETFs for the year to date, the largest amount since 2009, according to Lipper data.

International funds, meanwhile, now have an average of 3.2 percent of assets invested in China, up from 2.2 percent in 2012, while U.S. large cap funds that own Chinese stocks have an average of 2 percent of assets in Hong Kong listed companies, up from 1.3 percent in 2012.

Even as he expects those fund inflows to reverse course, Jiang, the Ivy fund manager, said that Beijing still has further policy moves to make in order to stabilize the market.

"When your house is on fire, you find a way to put it out," he said. "Then you can talk about the market finding a natural bottom."
 

broadsword

Brigadier
When you have a state capitalism economy, you can do things other normal capitalist economies cant. Of course, in the long term, what will be the consequences?

When your economy is big and fundamentally strong, you can be in a position of control and affect others rather than vice versa as was the US when during the last financial crisis, it rode it out by QE rather than tightening. If you think you have a better way of handling a crisis, you don't have to listen to others.

The major stock holders that holds more than 5% of any one company is restricted from selling it for the next six months. Those guys are going to lose a lot of money during this prohibition period. These guys are going to unload a lot of real estate(ie. condos) to maintain liquidity. In return the real estate market is going to be dragged down. I also believe the shadow bank funds are going down as well.

A 30% correction is common for a stock market.....As for the rest, let us see it pans in the next 12 months. But then...

Not saying that china is going to colapse, but regarding prices going down in china because of stock market crash, perhabs you should look at this article:

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


In the end, it is mentioned that everyone staring at their screens in the trading floor was dumbfounded. Perhabs that is one of the reasons why the chinese government was very determined to stop the stock market crash.

Dow Jones crashed 50% in 1987 in just four days, Nasdaq, from March 11, 2000 to October 9, 2002, crashed 78%. After licking its wounds and picking up the pieces, look where the US economy is now.
 

Brumby

Major
The major stock holders that holds more than 5% of any one company is restricted from selling it for the next six months. Those guys are going to lose a lot of money during this prohibition period. These guys are going to unload a lot of real estate(ie. condos) to maintain liquidity. In return the real estate market is going to be dragged down. I also believe the shadow bank funds are going down as well.
I think your stipulated scenario is dependent on (i) how much of the equity is collateralised; (ii) whether the covenant threshold levels are being threatened; and (iii) the flexibility of banks in enforcement in line with government directives. In a forced sale scenario then we would definitely see a dislocation in market valuation with significant repercussions on wealth and the corresponding flow on effects.

If none of the extenuating circumstances are dominant, it would simply be paper profits vanishing for the major stock holders.
 

tphuang

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
VIP Professional
Registered Member
The reason for this stock market crash is simple. It has gone up way too much in the past year and even with the recent declines, it's still at April level, so could go down a lot more. The growth in economy simply dictates that such rise in stock market is completely unreasonable and need correction. The problem is that the stock market like the housing market functions like a really big casino in China. Over 30% of investors have not completed secondary education and I think a fair chunk of that are illiterate. People are literally investing on the margins, because they see other people doing it and making money. A lot of this gets superstitious rather than based on sound investment. And of course, the recent Chinese gov't actions of allowing people to mortgage their home to put more money in stock market is completely nuts.

None of this obviously is indication of the real Chinese economy. But of course, if people loose a lot of money on the stock market, they will also spend less in the real economy, so it could have longer term affect.

Remember, there were even bigger crashes a few years ago when it dropped 70%. The real issue is that Chinese economy has too much debt and is overly leveraged. The deleveraging will be painful, but is needed. Japan never learned to deleverage all of this years, that's why it's seen 25 years of weak growth. The worst China could do is to follow Japan's path and do the same.

The major stock holders that holds more than 5% of any one company is restricted from selling it for the next six months. Those guys are going to lose a lot of money during this prohibition period. These guys are going to unload a lot of real estate(ie. condos) to maintain liquidity. In return the real estate market is going to be dragged down. I also believe the shadow bank funds are going down as well.
While not all of your comment here is unfounded. This post does follow a consistent pattern of negative posting against China which I think is getting tiresome.
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
Over 30% of investors have not completed secondary education and I think a fair chunk of that are illiterate. People are literally investing on the margins, because they see other people doing it and making money. A lot of this gets superstitious rather than based on sound investment.

This is the crux of it I think. I wonder if the govt can implement any kind of mandatory pre-investment education for potential retail investors to at least provide a foundation of basic understanding on how the market works... and the risks of taking part.
 

broadsword

Brigadier
China builds multiple unit train for Europe


Xinhua, July 8, 2015
upload_2015-7-10_9-46-30.png
The first advanced multiple unit train to be exported to Europe rolled off the assembly line of China's Zhuzhou Electric Locomotive Co., Ltd on Tuesday. [Photo: Zhuzhou Electric Locomotive Co., Ltd ]
The first advanced multiple unit train to be exported to Europe rolled off the assembly line of China's Zhuzhou Electric Locomotive Co., Ltd on Tuesday.

The company, located in central China's Hunan Province, is a subsidiary of China's high-speed rail maker CRRC Corp. Ltd.

The motor coach train, colored red and yellow after the national flag of Macedonia, is the first of six such trains purchased by the country, said Chen Xihong, deputy chief engineer of Zhuzhou Electric Locomotive. The first one will be delivered soon.

Vlado Misajlovski, minister of transport and communications of Macedonia, witnessed the finished train rolling off the assembly line in a ceremony held at Zhuzhou Electric.
The train is of great significance to the cooperation of the two countries and for China-European rail transport, said the minister.

Macedonia requires the trains have a speed of 140 km per hour. When designing the train, the Chinese company has adopted technology for speed at 160 km per hour to ensure its operational safety and leave room for future speed hikes, said Chen.

The train has three cars which can carry 280 passengers in total. Its design is in line with the most strict safety standards in Europe.

The train will run on the 215-km-long railway between Tabanovce in northern Macedonia and Gevgelija at its southern border with Greece. The track passes the Macedonian capital Skopje.
 
Top