Chinese Economics Thread

AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
Quote Assassins Mace"the American worker cannot compete with cheap labor overseas so Americans will never be able to sell their products to a developing world who cannot afford them. So who wins?"

Labour costs are only a small part of the equation, even before this financial meltdown it was reported a lot of companies were reconsidering in outsourcing to China because, outside the normal operating costs such as transport etc, there has been the concern of intellectual property rights, product quality and communications eg theres been articles that Boeing are reducing their outsourcing because of probs.
They will be building new factories and with more robotics incorporated into the production process
they could produce the item even cheaper and a better quality.
They neednt bother about the 3rd world markets as their traditional western markets and a percentage of the privileged who want western brands and their quality would more than suffice. China although it does produce some quality products, quality is still a oxymoron.

That's just more from the same media that contradicts itself. Easy spin to cover up Western corporate financial troubles as blaming it on poor quality in China. It may have been recent news to the public of this recession but the experts who determine this admitted that the recession has been around over a year. It was only last year when these stories popped up about companies pulling out of China. Where did they go? They went no where because it wasn't about quality but financial trouble at home.

Also those stories about companies pulling out of China said it was because of rising labor costs. Rising labor costs mean China's economy is moving up the ladder. People are finding better jobs and says nothing about low quality.

A significant portion of the profits of global corporations today are coming from developing economies. Developed economies are saturated markets which is why more and more profits are made overseas. If all the money was made in developed countries, why are they even bothering with developing economies?

If there were robots that handle every step in the process, how is someone going to get paid to buy it? They just eliminated every customer in the world because everything is going to be made by robots. Not possible in a world with finite resources.
 
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Schumacher

Senior Member
Bow to the chairman and hail to the de-coupling theory. .....

These de-coupling skeptics don't seem to know much abt economics or worse basic maths. A 6.8% growth off an 07 base that was just recently bumped up to 13%, with all other major economies already in negative, not to mention inflation falling from close to double digit to only 1%+ now, and de-coupling is dead ? :)
I know it's always tempting to say 'I told u so' but seriously we're talking major economies here, not some small business selling orange juice by the roadside. If one turns out to be right, one will have plenty of time in months/years to gloat. By jumping on a set of figures which I actually think show how resilient China is as described above is quite silly.
 

bladerunner

Banned Idiot
To Assassins Mace

You do have a point or to concerning misinformation about China coming from the West, but Boeing are deadly serious about outsourcing work on the Boeing Dreamliner. The cost savings aren't stacking because of errors and time.. The time isn't that far away when robotics are employed to do the simple and repetitive jobs. Employing cheap immigrant labour isnt always the answer as host countries have found out.
Financial meltdown aside the West isnt tapped out when it comes to consumer items as they do wear out and have to be replaced.
I assume its the auto market you are referring to when the companies look to other markets, but this doesn't have to be the case where the manufacturing model calls for expanding sales every year.
 

bladerunner

Banned Idiot
I don’t think one can easily pass off Western views of Chinas projected economic views as being influenced by jealousy and can be malicious in nature.
Here is one that doesn’t paint a particularly rosy view on China, and I find its views well rationalized even though avid China supporters may disagree.

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Asia turns blind eye to facts
By Robert M Cutler

MONTREAL - Today, Thursday, the Chinese government released statistics showing that the country's economy grew at at an annualized rate of 6.8%, the slowest pace in seven years, during the last quarter of 2008. The performance follows a Fitch Ratings estimate at the end of last week that full-year 2009 growth would fall to 6% or below.

The World Bank continues to insist on a 7.5% growth rate for the current year, based on the increasingly doubtful assumption of growing domestic demand. The International Monetary Fund has bruited a possible growth rate of 5%. Other estimates are being revised downwards, some even into negative territory.

It has generally been agreed that the economy needs a minimum 8% growth rate to maintain levels of production sufficient to prevent unemployment (and attendant social unrest) from increasing. Current revisions of estimates are falling too far below that level for the difference to be trivial.

These new statistics for the last quarter of 2008 follow a previous report of decline in China's gross domestic product during the third quarter to 9%, making now six consecutive quarters of decline, even following a new revision of figures for 2007 raising the growth rate from 11.9% to 13%.

Neither the organizational management nor the statistical methodologies of China's National Bureau of Statistics are immune from political pressure from above and the desire of their underlings to inflate numbers. It appears that there is a politically driven bias also in favor of smoothing curves, that is, artificially removing the fits and starts and jumps and spikes that are characteristic of actual economic life.

Observers and analysts have therefore sought other indirect economic measures of economic growth. Most of these (statistics such as electricity production, construction and industrial production, as well as fixed investment and retail sales) show no significant increase in the rate of growth.

Thus manufacturing has been declining for at least five months across nearly every industry surveyed, although indirect statistics suggest that this decline may be stabilizing at least in the short term. However, export orders, output and new orders are all down. Companies are trying to protect market share by cutting prices. This reduces the benefits that could accrue from producers' lower costs, even as companies stop recruiting new personnel and let current staff go.

However, neither the Hang Seng China Enterprises (HSCE) Index for shares of mainland companies listed in Hong Kong nor the Shanghai A-Share Stock Price Index, sometimes called the Shanghai Stock Exchange Composite (SSEC), reacted much to the bad news, posting small gains.

It is worthwhile sometimes to compare the two benchmarks. The first is a freefloat capitalization-weighted index that includes H-Shares on the Hong Kong Stock Exchange and is part of the Hang Seng Mainland Composite Index, while the second is a capitalization-weighted index following Shanghai Stock Exchange A-shares that are restricted to local investors and qualified institutional foreign investors.

The HSCE is in general more exuberant. It has held up much better than the SSEC from the late 2007 highs, particularly from mid-March to mid-September 2008. It also has done much since the late-October trough last year, although that is largely because its October 27 low was off over 30% from a week before, whereas the SSEC's low that day of down only half as much proportionally.
Even allowing for the overnight 3.5% gain in the Dow Jones Industrial Average, it may seem odd that the Asian stock markets
were slightly up during the day. Outside China, other significant bad news included a 35% drop in Japan's exports in December from the year previous and South Korea's fourth-quarter economic contraction of 5.6% (much more than expected and the largest decline in over 10 years).

The predominant narrative to "explain" this seems to be the assumption that governments in Asia and elsewhere will strengthen measures to ease the financial crisis and palliate the worldwide recession: a variant on the "bad news is good news" theme.

In the case of China, some analysts hope that the economic stimulus beginning last October will cushion the slide and help keep overall growth in 2009 at least over 7%. However, there are formidable obstacles, including decreasing external demand, the elimination of raw materials overstocks, and declining investment in construction and real estate, that will weaken the Chinese economy through at least through the first half of the year, if not beyond.

It is unlikely that government measures will be able to arrest the decline in production. Other developments, including declines in global demand for exports, in investment, and in domestic demand (as a result of declining employment figures) all conspire to make 2009 more difficult than even yet is generally suspected. Moreover, even if investment in production picks up later in 2009 due to government stimulus measures, this will not do much good if domestic and global demand does not match it.

A consensus is thus emerging that the Chinese government's stimulus as presently configured will not be enough, and that additional monetary and fiscal measures will be necessary, from which comes the aforementioned belief that governments will do more. However, Thursday's bad news was significantly worse than expected and has not already been factored into equity prices. Therefore, what we have is a case of willful self-blinding and wishful thinking, indicating that further losses will be necessary before a first cycle of capitulation is complete.

Robert M Cutler (
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) is a Canadian international affairs specialist.
 

Schumacher

Senior Member
I don’t think one can easily pass off Western views of Chinas projected economic views as being influenced by jealousy and can be malicious in nature.
Here is one that doesn’t paint a particularly rosy view on China, and I find its views well rationalized even though avid China supporters may disagree.
.......

I don't see many here who dismiss all western views as having ulterior motives. Most make good points to support their case, it'd be more helpful if you point out the related posts rather than make a general statement like that.
As for the article, I don't have serious views either way with it. It's just one of many lately regurgitating same old points without much evidence, whose main motivation is perhaps more to fill up news space than presenting something new.
I do note the guy brings up the 8% & unrest thing again, oh goody, now that we have 6.8%, hell should break loose in China anytime now. :) But seriously, my suggestion is again better not to hold one's breath while waiting.
 

Engineer

Major
To Assassins Mace

You do have a point or to concerning misinformation about China coming from the West, but Boeing are deadly serious about outsourcing work on the Boeing Dreamliner. The cost savings aren't stacking because of errors and time.
The fiascal with the 787 is due more to bad management rather than outsourcing. Airbus only does design and integration and you never see them running into such a large problem.
 

bladerunner

Banned Idiot
The fiascal with the 787 is due more to bad management rather than outsourcing. Airbus only does design and integration and you never see them running into such a large problem.

I read an article on the 787 and its production delays recently, cant remember where though, and they blame a big portion of cost overuns and delay on the outsourcing element.. The articles contention was management tried a hollywood movie production approach where elements of the film are made all over the world. It just doest work when it comes to airliners.
 

bladerunner

Banned Idiot
If there were robots that handle every step in the process, how is someone going to get paid to buy it? They just eliminated every customer in the world because everything is going to be made by robots. Not possible in a world with finite resources.

to correct any misunderstanding,I meant that robotics could be selectively utilised in some areas of the manufacturing process, which could negate any price advantage China might have through cheaper labour.
 

bladerunner

Banned Idiot
I don't see many here who dismiss all western views as having ulterior motives. Most make good points to support their case, it'd be more helpful if you point out the related posts rather than make a general statement like that.
As for the article, I don't have serious views either way with it. It's just one of many lately regurgitating same old points without much evidence, whose main motivation is perhaps more to fill up news space than presenting something new.
I do note the guy brings up the 8% & unrest thing again, oh goody, now that we have 6.8%, hell should break loose in China anytime now. :) But seriously, my suggestion is again better not to hold one's breath while waiting.

Whoops I think there is a mistake in the article I had posted> The writer suggested Chinas annualized growth was 6.8%, for 2008 but I thought Chinese sources had said their 4th quarter growth was 6.8% with a annualized growth closer to 9%. ( Can anyone substantiate this mistake, perhaps made by the writers haste in dishing it out to the Chinese.)

Unfortunately Im unable to specially point out posts that are curtly dismiss criticism as China bashing, but one can detect undertones of it from time to time in various threads.
 

SampanViking

The Capitalist
Staff member
Super Moderator
VIP Professional
Registered Member
Whoops I think there is a mistake in the article I had posted> The writer suggested Chinas annualized growth was 6.8%, for 2008 but I thought Chinese sources had said their 4th quarter growth was 6.8% with a annualized growth closer to 9%. ( Can anyone substantiate this mistake, perhaps made by the writers haste in dishing it out to the Chinese.)

Unfortunately Im unable to specially point out posts that are curtly dismiss criticism as China bashing, but one can detect undertones of it from time to time in various threads.

This is the initial growth assessment for 2008 and yes it is 9%. Ina few months we will get the initial result and by the end of the year we should have the final result (we only had the 2007 final results a few weeks ago!). The recent trend is that the figure has recalculated higher at each stage so it will be informative to see how it does this time round.
 
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