Chinese Economics Thread

AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
China just cancelled its wheat orders from the US. Biden’s rapprochement didn’t change his policies against China so why the so-called good will move towards China? It’s to prevent China from following the US in buying from other sources than American when it can. The US is no longer making money from selling advanced technology to China. Now it’s not making any money selling what it wants to make money from China. The US though still has to buy what it can’t get cheaper than from China or its economy suffers.

Nikki Haley told MAGA farmers she was going force China to be dependent on the US for food. Later she told America that she would only allow close allies to buy precious US agricultural products. This coming from a country that has to pay farmers not grow or else it’ll depress prices.

The mistake the US makes is thinking it’s the only market out there that can buy and sell things. US politicians will keep perpetuating that lie so that any actions they take against like China, Americans will think they struck a huge blow. That’s why you get a desperate Biden wanting a meeting with Xi while Nikki Haley has to threaten an act of war to force China to be dependent on the US for food. If China is so insignificant for the US, they don’t need to say or do anything.
 

supercat

Major
This is why I don't support the internationalization of rmb. This benefits gone.
Some Western MSM would claim that China has to increase auto export because there is serious overcapacity in China's auto industry. However, it's unlikely the case. Make sure you read the whole thread.

China's economy is transitioning away from real estate toward manufacturing and consumption.

A comparison of China's economy with some other countries in the past few years:
 

pbd456

Junior Member
Registered Member
well, they are not losing control on it. They have large quantity of USD to defend its value and they can print more Yuan to weaken its value. But the point of low Yuan being good for China is a very ancient way of thinking things.

China's industries are often 3 or 4 times cheaper than the West. Having a stronger Yuan doesn't hurt its export and improves China's ability to attract investment from countries like Saudi Arabia and Russia that run a surplus vs China and also allows China to use money to wield influence around the world (like America does). Why do you think China's central bank still defend RMB? It wants currency stability, because that's good for business


China run's a huge trade. surplus with India. Why would you stop that?
Keeping a stable value of Yuan for now is the best option currenrly as it can improve the competitiveness of high tech export to destroy western countries.
 

tacoburger

Junior Member
Registered Member
Money is moving out of real estate and into productive high end manufacturing. But I hope that more money is being poured into manufacturing areas that China is struggling in, like aircraft engines, robotics, biotech or high end semiconductors and not as much in areas that China already dominates like solar or EVs. It's like the massive EV rush 3-5 years back where everyone and their grandmother was trying to create a EV companies to cash in on the hype, investor money and government subsidies.

We're already seeing this with renewables technology, where lots of money is pouring in, even though the industry is already so mature that a few billion won't help much and where overcapacity is already becoming an issue , as compared to smaller niche industries where a few billion can completely change the landscape.
 

FairAndUnbiased

Brigadier
Registered Member
Money is moving out of real estate and into productive high end manufacturing. But I hope that more money is being poured into manufacturing areas that China is struggling in, like aircraft engines, robotics, biotech or high end semiconductors and not as much in areas that China already dominates like solar or EVs. It's like the massive EV rush 3-5 years back where everyone and their grandmother was trying to create a EV companies to cash in on the hype, investor money and government subsidies.

We're already seeing this with renewables technology, where lots of money is pouring in, even though the industry is already so mature that a few billion won't help much and where overcapacity is already becoming an issue , as compared to smaller niche industries where a few billion can completely change the landscape.
private investors will never invest in high end semiconductors through market factors. Look at Samsung. profit margin is shit for anyone except for the absolute top and that is because they can charge monopoly pricing while everyone else has to play in a competitive commodity market. Samsung is #2, and they get nothing.

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Samsung’s revenue for the quarter ending December fell 3.8% from a year ago, while operating profit dropped 34.57% in the same period. For the full year of 2023, its semiconductor business
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of 14.88 trillion Korean won, from a 23.82 trillion Korean won profit a year earlier on the back of weak global demand, according to LSEG data.

Semiconductor is NOT get rich fast. TSMC is the only one that makes profit beyond the ~5-10% norm and that's because they got handed a shit ton of perks. Adjacent markets like semiconductor equipment is also winner takes all losers eat shit. It's a very oligopolic or even monopolistic market. ASML has a monopoly, and its revenues are $30 billion. Respectable, but basically nothing compared to even a car company which can get 50+ billion in revenue even in a competitive market, never mind a software company.

You have to understand that aircraft engines, semiconductors, etc. will never attract private investment outside of a company expanding or acquiring another. There is no such thing as an aircraft engine startup. There just isn't. Every engine manufacturer either has been doing it since aircraft engines were invented or is the offshoot of some other heavy industrial company that's been around for a long time.

Biotech is going to be difficult for regulatory reasons. But there will be startups on the engineering side. I expect more biomedical devices, imaging and software investment, but not much on the pure biology side.

Robotics is going to be fine but there's already established industrial robot manufacturers like Midea/Kuka.
 

pbd456

Junior Member
Registered Member
Fabs has been known to be a boom bust business. This is why US didn't care so much for a long time and allow TSMC to specialize. Instead, Is focus on high margin business like chips design like AI chips etc. when there will be a bust again, not sure how US companies will cope. Once upon a time, AMD CEO said real men have Fabs
 

Eventine

Junior Member
Registered Member
US grand strategy is often misunderstood or underestimated. Not to say Americans are geniuses, but they're neither stupid nor incompetent. Since the end of World War 2 and especially after the fall of the Soviet Union, they've managed to basically get the world by its balls:
  • First, they gradually came to dominate finance via their currency and capital markets. Using financial power, they then buy up the companies and industries of other countries, and make the best talent work for them. Don't want to sell? Then the US will sanction / isolate / topple your government, either directly if they can find an excuse, or indirectly through sabotage, infiltration, and media control.
  • Despite this financial focus, however, the US never neglected its R&D - which is how you can tell they actually have a strategy and isn't just being greedy. R&D is fundamentally a loss making enterprise, especially in the short term; but the US, contrary to the stereotype of dumb Americans, spent trillions on it. This allowed them to, for decades, control 90+% of "new technology" through having the best research institutions, strong industrial-academic-military fusion, and the best venture capital environment in the world.
  • This lead in "new technology" then allowed the US to create new industries that they automatically dominated - like computers, smart phones, the internet, AI, EVs, etc. - and in so doing, create an "innovation monopoly"; hence the stereotype of US companies being particularly inventive even though it actually is just their R&D spend is so much larger than other countries.
  • Mature industries with lower margins were off loaded to other countries, mainly because they were a drag on profits and, as stated above, US grand strategy called for maximizing return on investment in order to dominate global finance, with which they could keep spending on R&D, buy up whatever they wanted, and support a huge military to pressure those who won't sell.
  • The final arm of the strategy is "export controls" or what is more appropriately understood as a high-end technology monopoly. Since the US spent so much $$$ on R&D, it naturally wanted to control the fruits of that R&D. To do so, it made strategic investments in IP enforcement and high-end supply chains, ensuring that they were ultimately under its control either directly or through trusted allies. This is how it keeps its leash on the Europeans, the Japanese, and the South Koreans. It might have surprised many Chinese that the US was able to get those countries to readily follow its lead in technology sanctions; but it's not surprising once you realize that those countries' high-end supply chains rely on US components, IPs, and R&D institutions. EUV lithography wasn't invented by ASML or the Dutch. It was invented in US labs. TSMC would not be able to operate without US technology.
The US grand strategy is quite sensible and was obviously made by people who knew their ****. The facade of American politicians being essentially incompetent is just that - a facade. The people who are in charge of policy aren't the talking heads on TV. There is actual intelligence behind the throne.

But, intelligent and well-educated though they might be, US strategists are, at the end of the day, still just people; and people make mistakes. Their biggest mistake was believing that China could be subjugated by their financial machine, the same way other countries have been - and to be fair, for a while, it looked like China was going that way. But the rise of Xi Jinping - a guy who by all accounts was a socialist fundamentalist who "did not care about money" - was not expected. The sudden about turn by China - getting rid of entrenched capital interests, going after private power brokers, eliminating foreign agents and the deep culture of private-public corruption that had thrived before 2012 - caught them by surprise.

Although mainstream media regards Trump as the guy who did a 180 on the relationship, 2012 was the actual moment when US plans for China came crashing down and relations switched to being fundamentally antagonistic. The US grand strategy assumed that no country could look at the state of the world and think that it could take on the US; that all would recognize the futility of challenging US hegemony; and that the various examples of failures - the USSR, Japan, Germany, the EU, etc. - would sufficiently discourage any who might try.

But they were wrong.
 
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Randomuser

Senior Member
Registered Member
I've been just thinking. Assuming the Xinjiang ploy by American fails (just like with Tibet and HK), the west basically accelerated China's development in Central Asia. Before they probably didn't care as much since they need to focus on the central China parts but all this talk has made China put money into developing it fast. In the future this might be very important to China as central asia offers the silk road alternative road. Suddenly the bargaining power of all the countries who want to block China's sea route goes down. It is not some hypothetical situation, people are genuinely interested in Xinjiang coz its offer that exotic experience you can't get in China or even elsewhere in the world.

And thats when the west will show their true selves on what they thing about Xinjiang and those Uyghurs. Guys who are too busy making money now from trading and tourism who will not do what the west wants? They are as good as dead.
 

AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
  • Despite this financial focus, however, the US never neglected its R&D - which is how you can tell they actually have a strategy and isn't just being greedy. R&D is fundamentally a loss making enterprise, especially in the short term; but the US, contrary to the stereotype of dumb Americans, spent trillions on it. This allowed them to, for decades, control 90+% of "new technology" through having the best research institutions, strong industrial-academic-military fusion, and the best venture capital environment in the world.
  • This lead in "new technology" then allowed the US to create new industries that they automatically dominated - like computers, smart phones, the internet, AI, EVs, etc. - and in so doing, create an "innovation monopoly"; hence the stereotype of US companies being particularly inventive even though it actually is just their R&D spend is so much larger than other countries.

It wasn't just US levels of R&D spending. What mattered more was the scale of the US market, which meant US companies could grow larger (more sales and profits) and then bankrupt or buy their smaller foreign competitors, even if the US company had worse tech. However, that does not apply to China which has a domestic market larger than the Combined West in many product categories.



  • Mature industries with lower margins were off loaded to other countries, mainly because they were a drag on profits and, as stated above, US grand strategy called for maximizing return on investment in order to dominate global finance, with which they could keep spending on R&D, buy up whatever they wanted, and support a huge military to pressure those who won't sell.
  • The final arm of the strategy is "export controls" or what is more appropriately understood as a high-end technology monopoly. Since the US spent so much $$$ on R&D, it naturally wanted to control the fruits of that R&D. To do so, it made strategic investments in IP enforcement and high-end supply chains, ensuring that they were ultimately under its control either directly or through trusted allies. This is how it keeps its leash on the Europeans, the Japanese, and the South Koreans. It might have surprised many Chinese that the US was able to get those countries to readily follow its lead in technology sanctions; but it's not surprising once you realize that those countries' high-end supply chains rely on US components, IPs, and R&D institutions. EUV lithography wasn't invented by ASML or the Dutch. It was invented in US labs. TSMC would not be able to operate without US technology.
The US grand strategy is quite sensible and was obviously made by people who knew their ****. The facade of American politicians being essentially incompetent is just that - a facade. The people who are in charge of policy aren't the talking heads on TV. There is actual intelligence behind the throne.

But, intelligent and well-educated though they might be, US strategists are, at the end of the day, still just people; and people make mistakes. Their biggest mistake was believing that China could be subjugated by their financial machine, the same way other countries have been - and to be fair, for a while, it looked like China was going that way. But the rise of Xi Jinping - a guy who by all accounts was a socialist fundamentalist who "did not care about money" - was not expected. The sudden about turn by China - getting rid of entrenched capital interests, going after private power brokers, eliminating foreign agents and the deep culture of private-public corruption that had thrived before 2012 - caught them by surprise.

I would say rather than mistake, it was systemic bias/prejudice/ideology in the power of unrestrained capitalism.
But note the Europeans don't believe this.


Although mainstream media regards Trump as the guy who did a 180 on the relationship, 2012 was the actual moment when US plans for China came crashing down and relations switched to being fundamentally antagonistic. The US grand strategy assumed that no country could look at the state of the world and think that it could take on the US; that all would recognize the futility of challenging US hegemony; and that the various examples of failures - the USSR, Japan, Germany, the EU, etc. - would sufficiently discourage any who might try.

But they were wrong.

In 2012, China was economically significantly smaller than the USA and much more technologically backward, so China didn't believe they could challenge the USA. Plus many believed that China could have good relations with the USA.

However, I do recall a Xinhua article (around that time?) where the then Politburo attended a study session Kennedy's Rise and Fall of the Great Powers. If you read that book and also have the goal of making China a prosperous and technologically advanced country, well, China has a population which is 4x larger than the US, so a fully developed China would be 4x larger in every regard.

So you would expect systemic competition and hostility, as the US is displaced.
 
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azn_cyniq

Junior Member
Registered Member
US grand strategy is often misunderstood or underestimated. Not to say Americans are geniuses, but they're neither stupid nor incompetent. Since the end of World War 2 and especially after the fall of the Soviet Union, they've managed to basically get the world by its balls:
  • First, they gradually came to dominate finance via their currency and capital markets. Using financial power, they then buy up the companies and industries of other countries, and make the best talent work for them. Don't want to sell? Then the US will sanction / isolate / topple your government, either directly if they can find an excuse, or indirectly through sabotage, infiltration, and media control.
  • Despite this financial focus, however, the US never neglected its R&D - which is how you can tell they actually have a strategy and isn't just being greedy. R&D is fundamentally a loss making enterprise, especially in the short term; but the US, contrary to the stereotype of dumb Americans, spent trillions on it. This allowed them to, for decades, control 90+% of "new technology" through having the best research institutions, strong industrial-academic-military fusion, and the best venture capital environment in the world.
  • This lead in "new technology" then allowed the US to create new industries that they automatically dominated - like computers, smart phones, the internet, AI, EVs, etc. - and in so doing, create an "innovation monopoly"; hence the stereotype of US companies being particularly inventive even though it actually is just their R&D spend is so much larger than other countries.
  • Mature industries with lower margins were off loaded to other countries, mainly because they were a drag on profits and, as stated above, US grand strategy called for maximizing return on investment in order to dominate global finance, with which they could keep spending on R&D, buy up whatever they wanted, and support a huge military to pressure those who won't sell.
  • The final arm of the strategy is "export controls" or what is more appropriately understood as a high-end technology monopoly. Since the US spent so much $$$ on R&D, it naturally wanted to control the fruits of that R&D. To do so, it made strategic investments in IP enforcement and high-end supply chains, ensuring that they were ultimately under its control either directly or through trusted allies. This is how it keeps its leash on the Europeans, the Japanese, and the South Koreans. It might have surprised many Chinese that the US was able to get those countries to readily follow its lead in technology sanctions; but it's not surprising once you realize that those countries' high-end supply chains rely on US components, IPs, and R&D institutions. EUV lithography wasn't invented by ASML or the Dutch. It was invented in US labs. TSMC would not be able to operate without US technology.
The US grand strategy is quite sensible and was obviously made by people who knew their ****. The facade of American politicians being essentially incompetent is just that - a facade. The people who are in charge of policy aren't the talking heads on TV. There is actual intelligence behind the throne.

But, intelligent and well-educated though they might be, US strategists are, at the end of the day, still just people; and people make mistakes. Their biggest mistake was believing that China could be subjugated by their financial machine, the same way other countries have been - and to be fair, for a while, it looked like China was going that way. But the rise of Xi Jinping - a guy who by all accounts was a socialist fundamentalist who "did not care about money" - was not expected. The sudden about turn by China - getting rid of entrenched capital interests, going after private power brokers, eliminating foreign agents and the deep culture of private-public corruption that had thrived before 2012 - caught them by surprise.

Although mainstream media regards Trump as the guy who did a 180 on the relationship, 2012 was the actual moment when US plans for China came crashing down and relations switched to being fundamentally antagonistic. The US grand strategy assumed that no country could look at the state of the world and think that it could take on the US; that all would recognize the futility of challenging US hegemony; and that the various examples of failures - the USSR, Japan, Germany, the EU, etc. - would sufficiently discourage any who might try.

But they were wrong.
China must find a way to ensure a stable line of anti-American rulers like Xi. I am glad that China's rulers understand that the future of the nation is dictated by science, technology, and military (STM). STM enables a nation to simultaneously enhance the quality of life and defend its interests, so naturally the nation with the most sophisticated STM will wield the most influence on the global stage. For instance, if research conducted in China triples the life expectancy of humans, elucidates the true nature of common mental disorders, or eliminates the need for physical labor, then the influence of China would surpass our wildest imaginations.

The role of the CPC is to defend China and its relations with foreign nations from nefarious actors like the USA and productively manage the resources of the nation to ensure the continuous improvement of the quality of life. So far, it has done a pretty good job.
 
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