Chinese Economics Thread

Suetham

Senior Member
Registered Member
Well, IMF projected that the Chinese economy will be $16.64 trillion in 2021 and it was actually $18 trillion. Most likely China will be 75-76% of the US economy in 2021. Besides, any long-term projections are not really reliable - even next year predictions are usually revised several times throughout the year to become more or less accurate.
If the 2021 US GDP is $23.2 trillion, then China's $17.7 trillion GDP makes up about 76.5% of US GDP.

If the 2021 US GDP is $22.9 trillion, then China's $17.7 trillion GDP makes up about 77.5% of US GDP.

In any case, China's GDP is between $5.2 trillion to $5.5 trillion of US GDP, well below estimates that put a gap of $6 trillion to $7 trillion.

Fed officials projected that the US economy would grow 4% in 2022. The Conference Board forecasts growth of 3.5%; Goldman Sachs is forecasting 3.8%. The Bank of America says 4%. Analyzes made even last year.

The World Bank in December 2021 cut its 2022 growth estimate of China's economy from 5.4% to 5.1%. Goldman Sachs also cut its estimate of China's economic growth from 4.8% to 4.3%.

We'll see next year who gets it right or if everyone gets it wrong.

Considering the most optimistic estimates from these analyses, this means that China will stagnate or even decline in 2022 with the total percentage of the US economy falling below 76%, for this change not to occur, China would need to grow at least 6%, or the US economy grow less in 2022.

One consideration, if 2021 Chinese GDP was US$17.7 trillion, based on SIPRI China's military spending at 1.7% of GDP, that would mean that China would be spending this year US$300.9 billion in value. nominal? There's more, is the PPP GDP count for 2021 out yet?
 

9dashline

Captain
Registered Member
If the 2021 US GDP is $23.2 trillion, then China's $17.7 trillion GDP makes up about 76.5% of US GDP.

If the 2021 US GDP is $22.9 trillion, then China's $17.7 trillion GDP makes up about 77.5% of US GDP.

In any case, China's GDP is between $5.2 trillion to $5.5 trillion of US GDP, well below estimates that put a gap of $6 trillion to $7 trillion.

Fed officials projected that the US economy would grow 4% in 2022. The Conference Board forecasts growth of 3.5%; Goldman Sachs is forecasting 3.8%. The Bank of America says 4%. Analyzes made even last year.

The World Bank in December 2021 cut its 2022 growth estimate of China's economy from 5.4% to 5.1%. Goldman Sachs also cut its estimate of China's economic growth from 4.8% to 4.3%.

We'll see next year who gets it right or if everyone gets it wrong.

Considering the most optimistic estimates from these analyses, this means that China will stagnate or even decline in 2022 with the total percentage of the US economy falling below 76%, for this change not to occur, China would need to grow at least 6%, or the US economy grow less in 2022.

One consideration, if 2021 Chinese GDP was US$17.7 trillion, based on SIPRI China's military spending at 1.7% of GDP, that would mean that China would be spending this year US$300.9 billion in value. nominal? There's more, is the PPP GDP count for 2021 out yet?
There are calories and then there are calories...

Not all GDP is the same.

In terms of what is 'useful', would paying people to manually dig ditches and then another group just to undo that by also getting paid to fill the ditches back up be considered economically "useful" activity? Surely from a thermodynamic standpoint it is a waste, as energy is expended but the end result is the same, ending up exactly where it began. One could say a lot of the modern day jobs have some degree of this same "hurry up and wait" sort of uselessness to it all...

You have the food industry poisoning people with junk sugar, carbs and then you have the so called health or medical industry that prescribes all sorts of drugs to treat the diseases caused by the foods etc.... this all adds to both sides on the GDP, infact healthcare is a huge chunk of US GDP, and yet was any of this activity "useful"?

Modern "money" is a claim on existing energy supply/deposit's future ability to do "work", when that money is spent/exchanged/actualized in the context of a society that still has readily access to available net energy for use. Thus money derives almost entirely it real purchasing power (and thus value) from the underlining "work/force/producitivty multiplier effect" of energy.

At the end of the day Net Energy is what counts because it alone powers all the other non-energy sectors of the economy. And all of the goods and services in the modern economy, without exception, require such an energy input. As that societies/civilizations primary energy sources dwindle and/or its EROEI (total net usable energy) threshold declines, then so does that societies money likewise deflate and devalue. The same unit of money will be able to fetch less energy, produce less work, contribute to less productivity, and thus enable less real economic activity etc

In such a situation, using money to measure economic activity is like using an ever shrinking ruler/yardstick to measure the dimensions of your physical property and volume of your tangible assets.... even as you get poorer and had to sell off more of your things, if your ruler or measurement device is shrinking at a faster pace then it would still appear by all measurements you were well off (for example using money to measure GDP as a signifier of the health or status of a nation or global economy)

Per capita net energy (accounting for EROEI) has already dropped off a cliff and that is the underlining reason why productivity and real wages have gone down even as technology was suppose to increase the productivity of workers. (an increase in economic growth rate by one percentage point is associated with an increase in primary energy consumption by 0.96 percent).

We are essentially, for all intents and purposes, living in a so-called "fractional-reserve Energy economy", in that there is not a commensurate amount of energy set aside or locked away for each unit of money invested, printed, earned or saved.

Energy is priced on the basis of output vs consumption demand, even as the total global reserves themselves are starting to run empty/dry but as long as it can be pumped out at roughly the same rate then the price stays relatively stable...

But this false stability is misleading because the total remaining extractable/usable net energy reserves in the world are already far less than the amount of total money out there in circulation and in terms of monies saved up or in the form of investments, retirement funds, profits earned and accumulated etc etc

Energy is in essence being priced by an economic system that itself relies upon the assumption that the very instruments of what it is relying on to price will always exists into perpetuity.

In a decreasing EROEI world, money loses ability to accurately price/value the remaining energy thus causing a viscous cycle of energy being monetarily cheaper than it should otherwise be, which again in turn CONtributes to propping up the value of money itself -- (recall that modern money derives almost entirely it real purchasing power (and thus value) from the underlining "work/force/productivity multiplier effect" in the context of the society in which it exists in. ) -- which it itself in turn means it only serves to accelerates and compounds the errors in pricing or accounting for subsequent consumption of energy and the remaining energy and so on and so forth...
 

victoon

Junior Member
Registered Member
Considering the most optimistic estimates from these analyses, this means that China will stagnate or even decline in 2022 with the total percentage of the US economy falling below 76%, for this change not to occur, China would need to grow at least 6%, or the US economy grow less in 2022.
if China has higher GDP growth rate than the US in 2022, China's GDP as a percentage of US GDP will only increase, even if the absolute gap in $ terms might increase.
 

FairAndUnbiased

Brigadier
Registered Member
There are calories and then there are calories...

Not all GDP is the same.

In terms of what is 'useful', would paying people to manually dig ditches and then another group just to undo that by also getting paid to fill the ditches back up be considered economically "useful" activity? Surely from a thermodynamic standpoint it is a waste, as energy is expended but the end result is the same, ending up exactly where it began. One could say a lot of the modern day jobs have some degree of this same "hurry up and wait" sort of uselessness to it all...

You have the food industry poisoning people with junk sugar, carbs and then you have the so called health or medical industry that prescribes all sorts of drugs to treat the diseases caused by the foods etc.... this all adds to both sides on the GDP, infact healthcare is a huge chunk of US GDP, and yet was any of this activity "useful"?

Modern "money" is a claim on existing energy supply/deposit's future ability to do "work", when that money is spent/exchanged/actualized in the context of a society that still has readily access to available net energy for use. Thus money derives almost entirely it real purchasing power (and thus value) from the underlining "work/force/producitivty multiplier effect" of energy.

At the end of the day Net Energy is what counts because it alone powers all the other non-energy sectors of the economy. And all of the goods and services in the modern economy, without exception, require such an energy input. As that societies/civilizations primary energy sources dwindle and/or its EROEI (total net usable energy) threshold declines, then so does that societies money likewise deflate and devalue. The same unit of money will be able to fetch less energy, produce less work, contribute to less productivity, and thus enable less real economic activity etc

In such a situation, using money to measure economic activity is like using an ever shrinking ruler/yardstick to measure the dimensions of your physical property and volume of your tangible assets.... even as you get poorer and had to sell off more of your things, if your ruler or measurement device is shrinking at a faster pace then it would still appear by all measurements you were well off (for example using money to measure GDP as a signifier of the health or status of a nation or global economy)

Per capita net energy (accounting for EROEI) has already dropped off a cliff and that is the underlining reason why productivity and real wages have gone down even as technology was suppose to increase the productivity of workers. (an increase in economic growth rate by one percentage point is associated with an increase in primary energy consumption by 0.96 percent).

We are essentially, for all intents and purposes, living in a so-called "fractional-reserve Energy economy", in that there is not a commensurate amount of energy set aside or locked away for each unit of money invested, printed, earned or saved.

Energy is priced on the basis of output vs consumption demand, even as the total global reserves themselves are starting to run empty/dry but as long as it can be pumped out at roughly the same rate then the price stays relatively stable...

But this false stability is misleading because the total remaining extractable/usable net energy reserves in the world are already far less than the amount of total money out there in circulation and in terms of monies saved up or in the form of investments, retirement funds, profits earned and accumulated etc etc

Energy is in essence being priced by an economic system that itself relies upon the assumption that the very instruments of what it is relying on to price will always exists into perpetuity.

In a decreasing EROEI world, money loses ability to accurately price/value the remaining energy thus causing a viscous cycle of energy being monetarily cheaper than it should otherwise be, which again in turn CONtributes to propping up the value of money itself -- (recall that modern money derives almost entirely it real purchasing power (and thus value) from the underlining "work/force/productivity multiplier effect" in the context of the society in which it exists in. ) -- which it itself in turn means it only serves to accelerates and compounds the errors in pricing or accounting for subsequent consumption of energy and the remaining energy and so on and so forth...

This is the reality. We can see it as market caps expanding far faster than the price of energy (or any other physical product but it all boils down to energy in the end). If the trends continue, eventually an entity will possess securities in value equal to the entire energy supply. This is essentially an economic singularity: once this occurs, the 1 entity that controls all energy can do nothing with it, because there is no possible demand from everyone else who has literally no energy. No buying or selling is possible.

Clearly this is nonsense. So there needs to be an off-ramp before it reaches this point.

There are only 2 scenarios to avoid this scenario:

1. Energy inflation matches rate of market cap expansion. This is the hyperinflation scenario.

2. Market caps decline below what they would've been if they rose in lockstep with energy inflation. This is the crash scenario.

Neither are good.

There's no other way to avoid the collapse scenario of "1 share buys all energy in the world" when market cap growth
 

Suetham

Senior Member
Registered Member
if China has higher GDP growth rate than the US in 2022, China's GDP as a percentage of US GDP will only increase, even if the absolute gap in $ terms might increase.
I checked and you are really right.

For example, let's say US GDP in 2021 was $23.2 trillion, China was $17.7 trillion, that would mean China has 76.5% of US GDP. If US growth in 2022 is 3.5%, US GDP will be $24.01 trillion, if China's GDP grows by 5.1%, Chinese GDP will be $18.60 trillion. This would represent 77.5% of US GDP, therefore, an increase of 1%.

Even considering the most optimistic analyses, with the USA growing 4% and the Chinese 5.4%, the Chinese would have a GDP of US$18.65 trillion, while the Americans would have US$24.12 trillion, this means 77.1% of the US GDP, an increase of 0.6%.
 

mossen

Junior Member
Registered Member
I checked and you are really right.

For example, let's say US GDP in 2021 was $23.2 trillion, China was $17.7 trillion, that would mean China has 76.5% of US GDP. If US growth in 2022 is 3.5%, US GDP will be $24.01 trillion, if China's GDP grows by 5.1%, Chinese GDP will be $18.60 trillion. This would represent 77.5% of US GDP, therefore, an increase of 1%.

Even considering the most optimistic analyses, with the USA growing 4% and the Chinese 5.4%, the Chinese would have a GDP of US$18.65 trillion, while the Americans would have US$24.12 trillion, this means 77.1% of the US GDP, an increase of 0.6%.

You are missing two key points. First, nominal GDP growth matters here and not "real" (i.e. inflation-adjusted). Nominal growth means including inflation on top of real GDP growth.

In addition, the Yuan's strength against the greenback is another factor. Last year, 1/3rd of the total GDP increase for China (1 trillion out of 3 added trillions) was just the Yuan strengthening against the greenback. This year, America's total growth will be higher than just 3.5% since you also have to add inflation. Nominal GDP statistics means you have to look at nominal GDP growth, factoring in not just inflation but also exchange rate movements. The US controls the dominant reserve currency which means they have a huge natural advantage here. C'est la vie.
 

9dashline

Captain
Registered Member
This is the reality. We can see it as market caps expanding far faster than the price of energy (or any other physical product but it all boils down to energy in the end). If the trends continue, eventually an entity will possess securities in value equal to the entire energy supply. This is essentially an economic singularity: once this occurs, the 1 entity that controls all energy can do nothing with it, because there is no possible demand from everyone else who has literally no energy. No buying or selling is possible.

Clearly this is nonsense. So there needs to be an off-ramp before it reaches this point.

There are only 2 scenarios to avoid this scenario:

1. Energy inflation matches rate of market cap expansion. This is the hyperinflation scenario.

2. Market caps decline below what they would've been if they rose in lockstep with energy inflation. This is the crash scenario.

Neither are good.

There's no other way to avoid the collapse scenario of "1 share buys all energy in the world" when market cap growth
Nice way of putting it....

You got folks selling literally jpeg images for millions of dollars a pop
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Then you got the fool who bought the jpeg image for $69 million on record saying he bought it because he believes its actually going to be someday worth 1 billion dollars...


At current rates, 1 billion USD can fetch enough barrels of oil to be the equal of approximately 12 million man years of human muscle labor power, more than what it took the build the Pyramids, Great Wall of China, and all the other historic wonders combined.... yet somehow this is supposed to be worth the same as a single jpeg image.

The pyramid is already imploding though, see the Bitcoin crashed 50% since last November
 
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