Chinese Economics Thread

AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
The talk about making a separate capital not to be subject to local interests, to me, is bunk. Typically the countries with separate capitals are among the most corrupt of all. The political class gets so totally separated from the actual economic activity of the country they live in a bubble and get easily influenced with little concern for how most people live their own lives. Brazil is a good example of this. The US even has institutionalized lobbying (legalized corruption) and local lobby group offices in the capital. Putting the capital in the geographical center is also nonsense.

You've got to separate cause and effect. A small country has little need for a separate capital to diffuse local versus distant interests.
Larger countries do tend to be more corrupt, because they have to have an extra layer of distant government on top.
But larger countries have other advantages, like a larger single market and scale efficiencies.


At best you might make a point for putting it in the center of the population distribution I think.

As I said, the shortest travel time for the entire population. That is better than the weighted centre of the population distribution.

You might claim that government offices are always a drain on capital, but putting them in the middle of nowhere and requiring a lot of extra facilities which would not be required and would be shared otherwise (schools, hospitals, etc) increases the drag even more.

Look at a map of Hubei. No matter where you put a new capital, it is still going to be relatively close to a significant city.
And a new political centre will inevitably attract new educational facilities and companies looking for new greenfield expansion locations.

Come to think of it, it would be an opportunity to develop universities funded by the central government.
At the moment, the best universities in China all discriminate in favour of local residents.

There is no good university which treats all applicants equally no matter which province they are from.
 

sndef888

Captain
Registered Member
I suspect water is an issue.
There's little spare water on the Beijing-Langfang-Tianjin corridor.

But you can see Xiong'An is next to lakes and reservoirs
Yup, I guess you may be right.
You've got to separate cause and effect. A small country has little need for a separate capital to diffuse local versus distant interests.
Larger countries do tend to be more corrupt, because they have to have an extra layer of distant government on top.
But larger countries have other advantages, like a larger single market and scale efficiencies.




As I said, the shortest travel time for the entire population. That is better than the weighted centre of the population distribution.



Look at a map of Hubei. No matter where you put a new capital, it is still going to be relatively close to a significant city.
And a new political centre will inevitably attract new educational facilities and companies looking for new greenfield expansion locations.

Come to think of it, it would be an opportunity to develop universities funded by the central government.
At the moment, the best universities in China all discriminate in favour of local residents.

There is no good university which treats all applicants equally no matter which province they are from.
While I think there may be some economic benefits to relocating the capital to Hubei, I think there are too many legacy issues to make it politically feasible.

Basing the capital in Beijing, next to the forbidden city no less, is a symbol of continuation of the Chinese nation straight from the Ming dynasty. More or less, it does give the CPC some additional legitimacy. Besides, Xi Jinping loves Beijing. He was born there and from state media reports you can tell he likes the place
 

nlalyst

Junior Member
Registered Member
An interesting article discussing the recent findings in economic history work on the great divergence:
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

One of the results is that the great divergence was definitely on its way since about 1700. By the late 18th century Japan overtakes China in GDP per capita, which they call Asia's little divergence akin to Europe's little divergence when the Netherlands and later Britain permanently overtook Italy. Chinese GDP per capita peaked in the early 11th century and briefly regained that point under the Qing empire, only to descend into a sharp fall since 1700.

Per capita GDP in 1990 dollars.
1625401879300.png

China's fiscal state weakness is striking:

Per capita fiscal revenues (grammes of silver)
1625403030500.png

"The two views can be reconciled once it is recognised that a balance is needed between having a state that is strong enough to enforce property rights but not so strong that can it can appropriate all the gains from trade. Indeed, Dincecco (2011) argues convincingly on the basis of Europe’s experience between 1650 and 1913 that what was needed for economic development was the establishment of a regime that was both fiscally centralised and politically limited. Fiscal centralisation was needed to ensure that the state had sufficient capacity to provide public goods such as education and transportation infrastructure, while parliamentary control was necessary to ensure that the public revenues were spent effectively and that the state did not hinder the processes of private wealth creation.

There is empirical evidence to back up the importance of the expansion of both state capacity and parliamentary control in the European Little Divergence. Early modern Britain and Holland dominated Spain and Portugal in terms of both the ability of the state to raise taxes that allowed for an expansion of state capacity and the control exercised by mercantile interests over the state through parliament

Asian states are sometimes portrayed as more centralised and autocratic than European states, thus holding back Asian economic development (Jones, 1981; Landes, 1998). However, there is little evidence to suggest that the problem was one of Asian states being too strong. In fact, it is easier to point to Epstein’s (2000) problem of states being too weak to sustain integrated markets and support the trade needed to bring about prosperity. Parthasarathi (2011) makes this claim for India, and the work of Prange (2011) on the problems of piracy in the Indian Ocean supports the idea that merchants would have been better off with stronger states able to effectively enforce property rights.

Data on fiscal revenue per capita in Table 15 suggest that China and India failed to keep up with northwest Europe in increasing fiscal capacity during the early modern period. Covering a longer span of history, Brandt, Ma and Rawski (2014: 67) suggest that China’s per capita fiscal revenue had been on a downward trajectory since the Northern Song dynasty, falling to just 30 per cent of its Northern Song peak by the late Ming period. This decline of the fiscal state mirrors China’s decline in per capita GDP."

The full paper provides a detailed attempt at an explanation:
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
 
Last edited:

Quickie

Colonel
An interesting article discussing the recent findings in economic history work on the great divergence:
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

One of the results is that the great divergence was definitely on its way since about 1700. By the late 18th century Japan overtakes China in GDP per capita, which they call Asia's little divergence akin to Europe's little divergence when the Netherlands and later Britain permanently overtook Italy. Chinese GDP per capita peaked in the early 11th century and briefly regained that point under the Qing empire, only to descend into a sharp fall since 1700.

Per capita GDP in 1990 dollars.
View attachment 74276

China's fiscal state weakness is striking:

Per capita fiscal revenues (grammes of silver)
View attachment 74277

"The two views can be reconciled once it is recognised that a balance is needed between having a state that is strong enough to enforce property rights but not so strong that can it can appropriate all the gains from trade. Indeed, Dincecco (2011) argues convincingly on the basis of Europe’s experience between 1650 and 1913 that what was needed for economic development was the establishment of a regime that was both fiscally centralised and politically limited. Fiscal centralisation was needed to ensure that the state had sufficient capacity to provide public goods such as education and transportation infrastructure, while parliamentary control was necessary to ensure that the public revenues were spent effectively and that the state did not hinder the processes of private wealth creation.

There is empirical evidence to back up the importance of the expansion of both state capacity and parliamentary control in the European Little Divergence. Early modern Britain and Holland dominated Spain and Portugal in terms of both the ability of the state to raise taxes that allowed for an expansion of state capacity and the control exercised by mercantile interests over the state through parliament

Asian states are sometimes portrayed as more centralised and autocratic than European states, thus holding back Asian economic development (Jones, 1981; Landes, 1998). However, there is little evidence to suggest that the problem was one of Asian states being too strong. In fact, it is easier to point to Epstein’s (2000) problem of states being too weak to sustain integrated markets and support the trade needed to bring about prosperity. Parthasarathi (2011) makes this claim for India, and the work of Prange (2011) on the problems of piracy in the Indian Ocean supports the idea that merchants would have been better off with stronger states able to effectively enforce property rights.

Data on fiscal revenue per capita in Table 15 suggest that China and India failed to keep up with northwest Europe in increasing fiscal capacity during the early modern period. Covering a longer span of history, Brandt, Ma and Rawski (2014: 67) suggest that China’s per capita fiscal revenue had been on a downward trajectory since the Northern Song dynasty, falling to just 30 per cent of its Northern Song peak by the late Ming period. This decline of the fiscal state mirrors China’s decline in per capita GDP."

The full paper provides a detailed attempt at an explanation:
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Does the study take into account Purchasing Parity per gram of silver?
 

voyager1

Captain
Registered Member
Low respect for law, low awareness of law, thuggish enforcement of law (just some days after raising cash from its US IPO lol).

Shambles of a response

Big new development
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China’s cyberspace regulator said on Sunday that it had ordered smartphone app stores to stop offering Didi Global Inc’s app after finding that the ride-hailing giant had illegally collected users’ personal data.
So you are telling me an ~ $60 billion company with an army of lawyers didnt know that they were clearly breaking the law lol

Cronyish selective regulatory enforcement. So just after some days of its US IPO the crackdown happened? What a coincidence!

Is this the supposed China's impartial and non-discriminatory laws/regulations enforcement?

I guess that this is included in "Xi Jinping Thought on the Rule of Law"
 

nlalyst

Junior Member
Registered Member
Does the study take into account Purchasing Parity per gram of silver?
Good question. The GDP per capita is expressed in PPP, that I can confirm.

The fiscal revenue data was collected from several external sources. One of them by Brandt, Ma, Rawski. There they made a conversion of revenue into days' wages:
fiscal.jpg
 

Xizor

Captain
Registered Member
Low respect for law, low awareness of law, thuggish enforcement of law (just some days after raising cash from its US IPO lol).

Shambles of a response

Big new development
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

So you are telling me an ~ $60 billion company with an army of lawyers didnt know that they were clearly breaking the law lol

Cronyish selective regulatory enforcement. So just after some days of its US IPO the crackdown happened? What a coincidence!

Is this the supposed China's impartial and non-discriminatory laws/regulations enforcement?

I guess that this is included in "Xi Jinping Thought on the Rule of Law"
I'd be glad that it happened soon enough. Maybe the US IPO focused the limelight on Didi. I'm sure that they were under investigation for some time
Its just that they revealed it AFTER the IPO.
 

quantumlight

Junior Member
Registered Member
Low respect for law, low awareness of law, thuggish enforcement of law (just some days after raising cash from its US IPO lol).

Shambles of a response

Big new development
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

So you are telling me an ~ $60 billion company with an army of lawyers didnt know that they were clearly breaking the law lol

Cronyish selective regulatory enforcement. So just after some days of its US IPO the crackdown happened? What a coincidence!

Is this the supposed China's impartial and non-discriminatory laws/regulations enforcement?

I guess that this is included in "Xi Jinping Thought on the Rule of Law"
You were jumping up and down when they crackdown on Jackma... but turns out CPC had good reason and it was for the greater good in the long run...

Same here with Didi... they might have been hosting their servers and rider data in the US, giving CIA information to Chinese citizen whereabouts in real time...

I have full faith and confidence in Xi, China has proven time and again when it does this there always is a good reason even if right now we dont know the extent of it

Didi wants to be a defacto Chinese Ride share and national champion but lists on the enemy's stock exchange and stores Chinese user data offshore in enemy data center? Traitors needed to be taught a lesson
 

voyager1

Captain
Registered Member
I'd be glad that it happened soon enough. Maybe the US IPO focused the limelight on Didi. I'm sure that they were under investigation for some time
Its just that they revealed it AFTER the IPO.
Oh yes, dont get me wrong. I agree with the investigation.

What I find thuggish is that it happened just after the US IPO, I mean my dude, this is screaming "I am punishing you for the US IPO"

And why did the regulators need the US IPO to "focus the limelight" on a ~$60 billion company. This is just bad and incompetent from the Gov

And with what happened it is now clear that the Chinese pulled (again) a fast one to the US Investors with this not happening before the IPO

I mean, look at this. Keep in mind that the markets are closed. Watch the bloodbath happen tommorow, it will be glorious...
IMG_20210704_210706.jpg
 

quantumlight

Junior Member
Registered Member
Oh yes, dont get me wrong. I agree with the investigation.

What I find thuggish is that it happened just after the US IPO, I mean my dude, this is screaming "I am punishing you for the US IPO"

And why did the regulators need the US IPO to "focus the limelight" on a ~$60 billion company. This is just bad and incompetent from the Gov

And with what happened it is now clear that the Chinese pulled (again) a fast one to the US Investors with this not happening before the IPO

I mean, look at this. Keep in mind that the markets are closed. Watch the bloodbath happen tommorow, it will be glorious...
View attachment 74303
Come on dude... America stock market is now the US Fed directly pumping printed monies into it as steriod injections via QE infinity...

US strategy is to get out under the dollar first, leaving everyone else holding the bag, and buying up as much real assets as it cans.... then eventually starting over by issuing digital currency but by then it would have owned much of the likes of ARM, Didi and whatever else was dumb enough to have been conned by America

CPC protecting the country from thugs is not thuggish behavior... you think for a second your beloved CIA would let Uber hosts servers on Huawei cloud and Alibaba and lists on Chinese stock exchange and conduct business in Yuan? Maybe youve never seen what real thuggery actually looks like
 
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