Chinese Economics Thread

[Gatekeeper]

Reminds of soviet history when the soviet government seized kulak property

Who is the planned economy here? China needs to treat American companies as extensions of the American state. Can you name a single american company which is independent from state interference?

This is why I always said, there's no such thing as "free market!". As soon as an economy introduces taxes, laws and regulations, and enforcement policies. The market ceased to be "free".

This concept is known even to the ardent supporters of "free market" thinkers like Friedman and Von Hayak.

For decades, we have been led to think market is "free" because the politicians and MSM tell us it is. And reinforced with ships named "herald of free enterprise". Etc.

 

[AssassinsMace]

Here's the truth. The US wants everything privatized even in other countries because that's where the US would have the advantage. Their private companies are already rich and powerful. They would overwhelm new upstarts domestically and internationally. You saw that with car companies. There use to be many small upstarts in the US that some say built better cars than the big established US auto companies. And the big auto companies destroyed them by either causing them to go bankrupt or buying them out. That's what they want to do internationally hence why they complain about China. If Google had their way a decade ago, they would control the internet in China. Same with Facebook or Amazon. New upstarts like Baidu or Alibaba wouldn't have a chance. You hear today charges of how China wants to economically take over the world. That's what they were planning to do and that's how they would've done it. They wanted in early in China so their bigger companies could kill domestic competition. And the hypocrites today are complaining for the US government to get involved because the Chinese government is bigger than they are and that's unfair...

 

[Gatekeeper]

Here's the truth. The US wants everything privatized even in other countries because that's where the US would have the advantage. Their private companies are already rich and powerful. They would overwhelm new upstarts domestically and internationally. You saw that with car companies. There use to be many small upstarts in the US that some say built better cars than the big established US auto companies. And the big auto companies destroyed them by either causing them to go bankrupt or buying them out. That's what they want to do internationally hence why they complain about China. If Google had their way a decade ago, they would control the internet in China. Same with Facebook or Amazon. New upstarts like Baidu or Alibaba wouldn't have a chance. You hear today charges of how China wants to economically take over the world. That's what they were planning to do and that's how they would've done it. They wanted in early in China so their bigger companies could kill domestic competition. And the hypocrites today are complaining for the US government to get involved because the Chinese government is bigger than they are and that's unfair...

Yes, some analysit think that China was fortunate that in the past two decades, USA was occupied with fighting war on terror, that they took their eyes of the ball.

But, I think it's more than that. China's resistance on Goggle, etc. and insists on joint ventures, etc. Help China to develope their indigenous industry.

 

[Quickie]

Here's the truth. The US wants everything privatized even in other countries because that's where the US would have the advantage. Their private companies are already rich and powerful. They would overwhelm new upstarts domestically and internationally. You saw that with car companies. There use to be many small upstarts in the US that some say built better cars than the big established US auto companies. And the big auto companies destroyed them by either causing them to go bankrupt or buying them out. That's what they want to do internationally hence why they complain about China. If Google had their way a decade ago, they would control the internet in China. Same with Facebook or Amazon. New upstarts like Baidu or Alibaba wouldn't have a chance. You hear today charges of how China wants to economically take over the world. That's what they were planning to do and that's how they would've done it. They wanted in early in China so their bigger companies could kill domestic competition. And the hypocrites today are complaining for the US government to get involved because the Chinese government is bigger than they are and that's unfair...

Now that some of the Chinese companies are getting too big and successful, the U.S. is coming up with other underhanded strategies like arresting the daughter of the founder of the company that is getting too successful, banning companies under the guise of national security, and making up stories of intellectual property theft and forced technology transfer, of which if there's such a thing, why has Apple and now Tesla (following other U.S. auto companies) still continued to set up company in China?

 

[Tam]

Now that some of the Chinese companies are getting too big and successful, the U.S. is coming up with other underhanded strategies like arresting the daughter of the founder of the company that is getting too successful, banning companies under the guise of national security, and making up stories of intellectual property theft and forced technology transfer, of which if there's such a thing, why has Apple and now Tesla (following other U.S. auto companies) still continued to set up company in China?

Chinese companies don't have to invest on the US while US companies invest in China. So what happens is the money flows from the US to China instead. The big loser is driving away Chinese companies is the US. Chinese companies are not going to add jobs in the US, and by lessening investment, they add less still while the US companies create jobs in China. That's why Xi is smarter than Trump.

 

[solarz]

Just one comment.

The US wanted China to join TPP, so that US corporations could sue the Chinese government and win.

Whilst China can do the same against the US government, there aren't as many opportunities to so do.

There is so much more Chinese government involvement in the Chinese economy.

What is this historical revisionism? The US specifically created TPP to exclude China. If you have such a short or Selective memory, we still have the relevant threads on this forum.

 

[Shaolian]

In the case of Tesla, I like how Elon Musk said during its recent Shanghai launch, that there will be a local Chinese R&D department responsible for new Tesla models. These Chinese designed models would not just be for the Chinese market, but would be available worldwide as well. That's how much confidence Elon has on Chinese development. Well, he asked aren't some of the best art in the world are to be found in China? Anyway, marketing aside, it's obvious that Elon feels, as far as new energy vehicles is concerned, China is where the big league is. Combined this development with the rollout of 5G, big data and the infrastructures required for further advances in autonomous vehicles, it's easy to see why.

 

[AndrewS]

What is this historical revisionism? The US specifically created TPP to exclude China. If you have such a short or Selective memory, we still have the relevant threads on this forum.

No. The idea behind TPP (and also TTIP) was to bring North America, Europe and much of Asia under the same set of rules.
One of these would be ISDS with corporations being able to sue and win against government regulations.
So far, we've seen companies sue against policies such as public health (anti-smoking), environmental, minimum wage levels etc

These rules would encompass a majority of the world's economic output,
And that this would compel China to sign up to the same rules, or otherwise be isolated.

But government regulation and involvement in China is to a far greater degree that which occurs in the USA, and would have to be dismantled if China wanted to join.

 

[solarz]

No. The idea behind TPP (and also TTIP) was to bring North America, Europe and much of Asia under the same set of rules.
One of these would be ISDS with corporations being able to sue and win against government regulations.
So far, we've seen companies sue against policies such as public health (anti-smoking), environmental, minimum wage levels etc

These rules would encompass a majority of the world's economic output,
And that this would compel China to sign up to the same rules, or otherwise be isolated.

But government regulation and involvement in China is to a far greater degree that which occurs in the USA, and would have to be dismantled if China wanted to join.

Yes, TPP is meant to exclude China.

 

[supersnoop]

One has to question that with Chinese companies they now have to make greater accountancy of their investments, makes smarter investments. Tencent recently bought a part of Japanese games developer Platinum Games, well known for their Bayonetta and Nier Automata series. They also threw money on Reddit. What for? Why not make better investments within China? What the heck Tencent is doing throwing money on the Top Gun 2 movie?

I think that this is part of a broader corporate strategy to enhance China's image internationally and hopefully get some domestic political currency in return. A lot of the goodwill towards USA is basically derived from being the protagonist in popular culture. Games and movies are make easy anti-China targets. Top Gun is a perfect example, the original was basically a "Red Scare", anti-USSR movie. Today, Hollywood would never antagonize China if they want to make a blockbuster. I think the investments just further this. Since Hollywood is going through huge consolidation (Disney-Fox, CBS-Viacom again, etc), if you can't get the money from the big boys, then who else has big bucks?

There are a lot of ridiculous things in this world that feels like blatant overreach, for example, EU looking to disband or dismember Google on its own.

In the future, you don't know how long this Tiktok fad will last. The tech industry teaches us that things are highly transcendental, like what happened to AOL, Yahoo and MySpace. Better to sell part of Tiktok while its red hot. You can probably get tens of billions easy. When the fad fades --- jeez, Tiktok is popular with teenagers, how fleeting is that market --- those US investors would be the ones holding the losses.

In theory, sometimes you need government overreach. Google and a lot of these companies are becoming too large and too powerful. The US healthcare system is a perfect example of not enough government intervention. Port of LA makes sense too, government feels it is a matter of national security. However, this is not one of those cases. As you mention, TikTok is a fad, it's something pretty stupid IMO, but to threaten such drastic measures at even a hint of popularity is totally transparent political maneuvering.

Now that some of the Chinese companies are getting too big and successful, the U.S. is coming up with other underhanded strategies like arresting the daughter of the founder of the company that is getting too successful, banning companies under the guise of national security, and making up stories of intellectual property theft and forced technology transfer, of which if there's such a thing, why has Apple and now Tesla (following other U.S. auto companies) still continued to set up company in China?

To add to this point. I think the whole intellectual property theft accusation is one of the biggest red herrings. It is basically tailor made for media consumption. The idea that all Chinese people can't come up with a single original idea and just copy, copy, copy. IMO, the weak intellectual property protection is probably pressuring domestic brands the most. I've read stories of Chinese tourists buying rice in Japan (but actually grown in China) because they believe that the export goods are the best (and is true to an extent). There was a joke back in the day that the best place to buy Moutai was LAX (very unlikely to be fake). Western media likes to talk about knock off Gucci bags or whatever, but really it's common things like "Laoganma" hot sauce and "Yeshu (Coconut Palm)" Coconut milk that are constantly fighting off imitation products domestically.

Chinese companies don't have to invest on the US while US companies invest in China. So what happens is the money flows from the US to China instead. The big loser is driving away Chinese companies is the US. Chinese companies are not going to add jobs in the US, and by lessening investment, they add less still while the US companies create jobs in China. That's why Xi is smarter than Trump.

I think you hit the nail on the head here. This is the silliest part of this "trade war". The reality is that Trump should be encouraging Chinese to invest in America to balance the trade. CRRC opened their MA train car operation and they hit them with tariffs on the parts imported from China!