Chinese ATGM discussion

Blitzo

Blitzo

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Viktor Jav said:
Except that to obtain a NLOS capability for the Spike, the weight was bumped up to 75kg. Which is almost impossible for it to be fired in the same manner like a Javelin (prone, sitting or from the shoulder).
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And in the case of MMP, it wasn't that heavy, despite also having an NLOS capability as well as being launched from a tripod.


Viktor Jav said:
What I am stating here is that the new ATGM design suggest that designed to be fire almost exclusively from a tripod mode, the aiming system depicted does not allow for hand held operation like the Javelin does, it is more like the Kornet ATGM in that regard.

It might be that the PLA intended for the missile itself to be available in both conditions but requires the swapping out of the aiming systems to achieve that just like the Spike.
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I do not see how the firing of a tripod precludes this system from being a man portable system.
If Spike variants like MR, or missiles like MMP which are both tripod launched, yet be considered man portable and compete with Javelin in the same competitions for man portable ATGMs, I'm not sure what the issue is.


If you are assuming that just because this system has a tripod it must be a certain weight, that is obviously not true because other systems like MMP exist with a weight that is only a few kg heavier than Javelin and is also man portable. And in the case of MMP, it also has a NLOS capability.

So let me summarize -- having a NLOS capability, and firing from a tripod, both tells us nothing about the weight of this missile, if you are concerned about weight and portability.

Once we have some specifications about the missile (one day, perhaps), then we will be able to make that judgement. But right now you're overreaching a bit.
 
by78

by78

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Viktor Jav said:
"Non Line Of Sight" is an ultra long-range version of the weapon (Israeli designation: Tamuz, תמוז), with a claimed maximum range of 25
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(16
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). It is a significantly larger missile than other Spike variants, with an overall weight of around 70 kg (154 lb 5 oz).
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I did also post data from the Rafael but it is barred by an error 403. So I can also post a link to the cache version
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The Weight is 71kg, whether it is missile in the canister only or with CLU included I can't say.

I have searched the other variants of the missiles, which while are lighter have different and/or more generic tracking systems.

The Spike SR uses thermal and optical sights like the updated Gustav
The other either have radar, wire or optical tracking. The lightest I can find which is the Spike LR put's its weight at "less that 45kg". Which could mean it weights 44.9kg and it is still toeing the line.
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Where is your evidence that NLOS capability accounts for the added weight of the NLOS Spike variant? One would think the vastly longer range of the NLOS Spike might have something with its added weight, no?
 
by78

by78

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Viktor Jav said:
So basically Insignius claim that this ATGM is the reason why the PLA is not adopting the HJ-12 which we have no concrete evidence that they are or not doing so is to be taken at face value.
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Strawman fallacy again and a moving of goal post. Where have I said anything about Insignius' claim? Where?

I draw you attention to my original reply (screenshot below), more specifically the part highlighted by the red box. As you can see, my reply was only to your assertion that "This new ATGM is designed to be fired from a tripod (i.e: fixed position) which means that needs to be set up pre firing. Compare that to a Javelin or a HJ-12, which only needs the operator to attach the CLU to the missile tube and it ready to go..."



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Blitzo

Blitzo

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by78 said:
Where is your evidence that NLOS capability accounts for the added weight of the NLOS Spike variant? One would think the vastly longer range of the NLOS Spike might have something with its added weight, no?
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I would add that there are multiple variants of Spike that have NLOS capability.

The "Spike NLOS" is just the name of that specific variant, which among other things, has NLOS capability -- but it also happens to be the largest Spike variant with greatest range as well.
That is to say, just because other Spike variants lack "NLOS" in their name, doesn't mean they don't have NLOS capability.
For example, Spike ER2 has NLOS capability.


In any case this entire discussion about Spike NLOS is a waste of time, because if the argument is that "NLOS capability = significantly greater weight" -- well the existence of the MMP missile should settle that argument, because MMP has NLOS capability while weighing a total of 26 kg including the missile/tube and tripod with CLU.
 
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Bltizo said:
And in the case of MMP, it wasn't that heavy, despite also having an NLOS capability as well as being launched from a tripod.




I do not see how the firing of a tripod precludes this system from being a man portable system.
If Spike variants like MR, or missiles like MMP which are both tripod launched, yet be considered man portable and compete with Javelin in the same competitions for man portable ATGMs, I'm not sure what the issue is.


If you are assuming that just because this system has a tripod it must be a certain weight, that is obviously not true because other systems like MMP exist with a weight that is only a few kg heavier than Javelin and is also man portable. And in the case of MMP, it also has a NLOS capability.

So let me summarize -- having a NLOS capability, and firing from a tripod, both tells us nothing about the weight of this missile, if you are concerned about weight and portability.

Once we have some specifications about the missile (one day, perhaps), then we will be able to make that judgement. But right now you're overreaching a bit.
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Still the MMP weights more than the Javelin and I have yet to see evidence that the MMP can be fired without a tripod which is what the Javelin offers.

What I am trying to state here is that there is a difference between man-portable (ie: can be broken down and moved by infantry but still needs to be set up with a tripod to use). And how a Javelin can dispense with that and be fired as is.
 
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Bltizo said:
I would add that there are multiple variants of Spike that have NLOS capability.

The "Spike NLOS" is just the name of that specific variant, which among other things, has NLOS capability -- but it also happens to be the largest Spike variant with greatest range as well.
That is to say, just because other Spike variants lack "NLOS" in their name, doesn't mean they don't have NLOS capability.
For example, Spike ER2 has NLOS capability.


In any case this entire discussion about Spike NLOS is a waste of time, because if the argument is that "NLOS capability = significantly greater weight" -- well the existence of the MMP missile should settle that argument, because MMP has NLOS capability while weighing a total of 26 kg including the missile/tube and tripod with CLU.
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Even then the other Spikes that are offered with NLOS are still much heavier then the Javelin and still require the use of a tripod to be used effectively. Even the Spike LR-2 does this with the CLU being broken into two components. Thing is when you cram better systems into a ATGM it's weight increases as well.
 
Blitzo

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Viktor Jav said:
Still the MMP weights more than the Javelin and I have yet to see evidence that the MMP can be fired without a tripod which is what the Javelin offers.

What I am trying to state here is that there is a difference between man-portable (ie: can be broken down and moved by infantry but still needs to be set up with a tripod to use). And how a Javelin can dispense with that and be fired as is.
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I do not believe that the presence or lack of a tripod is a reasonable definition for whether a system is man portable or not.

And in the case of MMP, having the overall system weigh 4 kg heavier I think does not mean it is not a man portable system.


If you are defining a "man portable" system as one which is 22kg or below, and includes only a CLU and a missile/tube and without a tripod, I think you are significantly overreaching and being arbitrary. There is no reasonable basis for a categorical cutoff point like that..

Because both MMP in its current form, as well as older and less capable Spike variants such as Spike MR -- which also weighs 26kg similar to MMP -- are considered man portable.
If you want to argue that Javelin is slightly lighter and potentially slightly more mobile than MMP, that is a far less ambitious statement and one that I could agree with.



Viktor Jav said:
Even then the other Spikes that are offered with NLOS are still much heavier then the Javelin and still require the use of a tripod to be used effectively. Even the Spike LR-2 does this with the CLU being broken into two components. Thing is when you cram better systems into a ATGM it's weight increases as well.
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See above
 
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Bltizo said:
I do not believe that the presence or lack of a tripod is a reasonable definition for whether a system is man portable or not.

And in the case of MMP, having the overall system weigh 4 kg heavier I think does not mean it is not a man portable system.


If you are defining a "man portable" system as one which is 22kg or below, and includes only a CLU and a missile/tube and without a tripod, I think you are significantly overreaching and being arbitrary. There is no reasonable basis for a categorical cutoff point like that..

Because both MMP in its current form, as well as older and less capable Spike variants such as Spike MR -- which also weighs 26kg similar to MMP -- are considered man portable.
If you want to argue that Javelin is slightly lighter and potentially slightly more mobile than MMP, that is a far less ambitious statement and one that I could agree with.
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And I am not saying that, if you look at my post I did not deny that the new ATGM is man portable. What I am contending is that it can be used in the same effect if not manner like the Javelin which the OP contended makes the HJ-12 obsolete.

)The HJ-12/Javelin offers a capability to take out the MBTs without the need to set up like a conventional ATGM, at the cost of range and safety.

2)This new ATGM, at least in this configuration, offers the capability for infantry to safely take out armor from a distance while still remaining man-portable. But it cannot be fired like a Javelin, which is the whole point of my contention.
 
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by78 said:
Where is your evidence that NLOS capability accounts for the added weight of the NLOS Spike variant? One would think the vastly longer range of the NLOS Spike might have something with its added weight, no?
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Scale it down and you will still get a weight that is greater than the Javelin. The MMP ? Weights 26kg vs the Javelin's 22.3 (with the lightweight CLU being 40% lighter that will be (19.74 kg). The Spike LR-2 ? weights 24.7kg ready to fire.

How about we go a step more with the Type 1 LMAT which taking advantage of newer electronics then the Javelin weights in at just 17.5kg but functions exactly the same?

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So unless you are supermen don't expect to be running around with than on your shoulders.

You can try and cut corners by reducing the potency of the missile but you will end up with a shorter range than the Javelin. The new CLU fired Javelin has 4km range, comparable to the MMP(4.500) but less then the Spike LR2. Then again if it wants to it can increase the range but it will make it heavier and the whole thing comes into full circle.
 
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by78 said:
Strawman fallacy again and a moving of goal post. Where have I said anything about Insignius' claim? Where?

I draw you attention to my original reply (screenshot below), more specifically the part highlighted by the red box. As you can see, my reply was only to your assertion that "This new ATGM is designed to be fired from a tripod (i.e: fixed position) which means that needs to be set up pre firing. Compare that to a Javelin or a HJ-12, which only needs the operator to attach the CLU to the missile tube and it ready to go..."



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And now we are back at square one. Instead it is you who is moving the goal post, first you say that the Javelin is designed to be fired from a tripod which I handily disprove by showing that it can be fired from the shoulder you change to the position that the new ATGM can also fire from the shoulder, but without evidence of it doing so.
Who is doing what fallacy again ?
 
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