China's transport, tanker & heavy lift aircraft

jobjed

Captain
In responce Blitz,
I point out I have actually reiterated that very point, that a large tanker can have two Drogue lines and a boom. However if the PLA do not have anything using that boom then the boom is unnecessary weight and cost. Although a boom can be fitted with an adapter to fuel a Probe and Drogue system. It would be easier to just run a Drogue line from the fuselage.


The PLA started out with no planes capable of drogue-line refuelling but they still went ahead and developed a drogue-line refuelling system. After they did that, all future aircraft were built with drogue refuelling receptors.

The PLA is starting out today with no planes capable of probe refuelling.......



That said one thing I really disagree with alot of people on is Y20 in my opinion has a good potential for export, and as tankers like the KC135, Older IL78 burn there last flight hours and other national militarys look to upgrade there potential So I restate there is potential for a boom export. Perhaps not on Y20 but with the rise of China's civil and military transport fleets there may come more options.

With WS-20 engines, I agree, it would be competitive against Ilyushins, Antonovs, and Globemaster IIIs. However, I don't believe China has the production capacity to spare for exports. In the further future, maybe, but I don't foresee large Y-20 export orders at least until the mid-2020s.
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
In responce Blitz,
I point out I have actually reiterated that very point, that a large tanker can have two Drogue lines and a boom. However if the PLA do not have anything using that boom then the boom is unnecessary weight and cost. Although a boom can be fitted with an adapter to fuel a Probe and Drogue system. It would be easier to just run a Drogue line from the fuselage.

There would be little to no reason to adapt a boom with a probe and drogue system if an aircraft already has two additional wingtip probe and drogue refuelling pods to begin with.

If the PLA does adopt a boom based refuelling system, it will be because they will have aircraft that will be equipped for that kind of refuelling.



Obviously the PLA currently has no aircraft capable of boom refuelling. We are talking about the future, after all.
 

SilentObserver

Junior Member
Registered Member
my $.02 because everyone else has, The PLAAF needs Tankers. We all know that.
There are two concepts for this Flying boom and Probe and Drogue.
  1. Flying boom is rarer, it has a major advantages. You can fuel up faster because of the pipe, but only a hand full of users use it. Thus far if the PRC invested in it, I can only think for export. As none of the PLA aircraft have a flying boom receptacle. US made Fighters that started in the USAF like the F15 and F16 demand Booms same for Some older F4 and A Flying boom Can be modified to tank Aircraft with a Probe and Drogue system. Downside it's heavy, demands an Operator and you can only mount one.
  2. Probe and Drogue is far more common and already the standard of PRC. It's 1 easier to build, you can tank multiple aircraft meaning if you build a large tanker you can get more use from that tanker per flight than a flying boom. it's more universal in that it allows tanking of not just fighters and bomber but also Helicopters. Again meaning you can get more use from the tanker as you have a expanded envelope. Down side is not as easy to tank up with because it's subject to turbulence and it has a slower refuel speed. There is some risk of fuel or the Drogue damaging the receiving aircraft. The Russians and Chinese as well as all the Tanker operators of the World already have provisions for Probe and Drogue. Even flying boom tankers can be fitted with an adapter to fuel Probe an Drogue aircraft however Probe and Drogue tankers can not.
Now If it is a study for export that could make some sense a few F16 and others who use older USAF type F4 have shall we say fallen from US favor. As I stated above A Flying boom Tanker can be modified to refuel a Aircraft using Probe and Drogue via an adapter.
So from an Export perspective if one of the PRC builders was looking to offer a Tanker program for both the PLA and possible Export to it's allied states a Flying boom like system would be a good option as you could mount one. If the End customer says They don't use it. Then you can modify the system to a Probe and Drogue.
So if you are building it off say a Comac 919 ( Hypothetical here) you can then have 3 refueling points One center line with a flying boom system installed but able to be modified for Probe and Drogue and 2 Probe and Drogue systems on the wings.
meaning that a 3 ship formation of fighters could be tanked at the same time. And this is a real configuration used on some MRTT like the A310, A330, KC46 ( troubled though it is)
Of course it could just be that they thought it looked cool. But I think my little Theory works well as you see the a Flying boom but the picture to the right ( our perspective) is clearly a Probe and Drogue receiving aircraft.
If China's is building a long range strategic bomber force (which I think they are) it would make sense for them to invest in a flying boom configuration tanker fleet. The faster refueling rate will make a difference for its survivability.

It is very unlikely for China to build a tanker fleet based off the C919 any time soon. If they do it would damage their international sales and potentially be barred from developed nations due to "national security concerns" by the US and deeming it a military use product. The only viable platform for China right now is the Y-20.
 

Klon

Junior Member
Registered Member
Henri Kenhmann has an
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about the topic.
All this suggests that the program of the new Chinese tanker, based on the design of the Y-20, could have reached the stage of the industrial prototype today. If this is justified, it may well explain the appearance at the end of 2016 of a strange device from Y-20 to Yanliang, which was brought to perform new static tests.
I recommend the whole thing.
 

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
From Henri K blog. there is no doubt anymore they are developing boom type refuelling
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AVIC develops the Y-20 tanker version

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If, two years ago in 2016, we had only a
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, the recent elements made public by the Chinese aeronautic manufacturer leave little doubt about the existence of such a program
.

Indeed, in a music video broadcast by the Chinese group on April 27 appeared a brief passage where we see a miniaturized model of Y-20, with on the side of the staff who worked around a kind of simulator for mothership with a rigid pole.

We also see a little further in the video that Chinese technicians seem to be analyzing images, first on Probe & Drug supply (also called "nanny") with an American F / A-18D, then of what appears to be the simulation of an operator's position, which controls on the one hand the rigid boom supply (also called "Flying Boom") with a new J-20 fighter, and on the other two other refueling to cart with the J-10S.

So this is the first time that we have concrete material to confirm the fact that the AVIC is actually developing a rigid pole refueling system, to be able to integrate it into a tanker plane, derived from its aircraft transport Y-20, also in development.

In sum, if all of these elements belong to the same program, it is highly likely that the Y-20 tanker version, probably called Y-20U, will have three supply points including a rigid boom.


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The development of a tanker aircraft based on the Y-20 is revealed in a video of AVIC (Images: AVIC)

For the moment, we do not know the exact progress made by the 603 Xi'an Institute, which should be responsible for the governance of the program since it is in this consulting firm of the AVIC group that the Y-20 transport aircraft and current H-6U / H-6DU tanker aircraft are designed.

But in a patent filed by one of his teams in October 2014, which concerns a ground test device to simulate the movements of the aircraft supplied by a rigid pole, it is clearly written that "the development of the device of Rigid Boom Refueling is in the functional prototype testing stage "(当前 我国 硬式 空 加油 过程 功能 功能 功能 阶段 阶段 阶段 阶段 阶段 阶段 阶段 阶段 阶段 阶段 阶段 阶段 阶段 阶段 阶段 阶段 阶段 阶段 阶段,,,,,,,,,,,, Western countries on associated technologies "(受 西方 国家 技术 严重 封锁, 硬式 空中 加油 相关 试验 技术 无 无 无 公无 资料 可 询.).

And in another patent filed by another Shanghai subsidiary of the AVIC group shows that a guidance system by optical signaling, dedicated to the control of supply with rigid boom, is finished developing in 2015.

All this suggests that the program of the new Chinese tanker, based on the design of the Y-20, could have reached the stage of the industrial prototype today. If this is justified, it can very well explain
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, which was brought to perform new static tests.

The research on the publication of R & D documents, around the single keyword "refueling in flight", seems to come to comfort also this estimate of timing. For example, the number of publications on the subject has been steadily increasing since 1989, reaching a peak in 2015 and 2016. This could be a pre-study phase between 2000 and 2010, at about the same time that the Y-20 program is launched, then an official development phase from 2011 until now.

Note that the subject of refueling in flight between drones, or drones, is also part of the figures.

Once completed, this new Y-20 tanker should be able to carry up to 60 tons of kerosene, enough to supply twelve J-10A / B / C within a radius of 2,200 km. Although this is not an ideal solution for a tanker, the natural limit of the platform requires, but it is in the short and medium term the best solution "Stop Gap" for the Chinese army, as well as the IL- 78 Midas imported from Russia, but with the advantage that it is entirely Chinese-Chinese.

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Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
(cont)
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The optical signaling guidance system for boom loading (Image: AVIC)

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The number of scientific publications around the keyword "In-flight refueling"

With only about twenty old H-6U / H-6DU tanker aircraft as well as three new IL-78s, whose refueling systems are not compatible with each other (Chinese vs. Russian), it is difficult for the air force to the Air Force and the Chinese Navy intervene far from its shores, both in the West Pacific and the South China Sea, for example.

It is therefore necessary for the Chinese army to develop a new tanker aircraft, with a platform and technologies fully mastered and controlled, without having to depend on any external supplier that could hinder the rapid staffing of this important force multiplier.

The development of pole fueling is also justified by a much higher transfer rate, up to three times more compared to basket refueling (6000L / min versus 2000L / min), and also by a reduced effort in training for "supply" hunter pilots.

However, it is unlikely that China will abandon the supply of "nanny" entirely, partly because this technique still has many advantages, such as having several air refueling stations available, and secondly because the Chinese army has a large number of hunters designed for basket refueling, such as the few hundred J-10 for example.

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A J-10B refueling with an H-6U (Photo: Chinese Army)

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Chinese Air Force Su-30MKK refuel with IL-78 (Photo: Chinese Army)

It should be noted that the Chinese army will soon receive its first AWACS refuelable, which was not the case so far with its dozens of KJ-2000, KJ-200 and KJ-500, another indirect proof that China is determined to push its surveillance perimeter well beyond its borders.

A photo taken by a Chinese enthusiast near Hanzhong (漢中), where one of the specific aircraft and transport aircraft manufacturers is located, shows that a new AWACS KJ-500, with a refueling boom , was conducting a test flight this Saturday, April 28th.

This is not only the first-ever Chinese AWACS to be refueled, but it also means that the Y-9, an average transport aircraft already in service in the Air Force and the Chinese army, may be able to do so if the need arises, since the KJ-500 is developed on the basis of the Y-9 platform.

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A KJ-500 equipped with a refueling pole was in test flight in Hanzhong on April 28 (Photo: 摸摸 愛摩托)

To be continued.

Henri K.

 

Tirdent

Junior Member
Registered Member
Maybe the next interation of the J-20 will allow boom refueling?

Actually, I hope not - boom refuelling makes sense (and could be attractive for China in the future) in some applications, but not in the all-encompassing manner that the USAF uses it in.

As TerraN_EmpirE indicates, it's merely a historical relic of the time when the service was split into Tactical and Strategic Air Commands and the latter held the authority when it came to tanker decisions (because it was the predominant user and administratively the operator - this was the era of Chrome Dome airborne nuclear alert). Using the boom with its significantly higher transfer rate is more efficient for serving a modest number of big aircraft with large fuel capacities each, but TAC actually argued in favour of probe & drogue (check out the Century Series: most have probes and we all know what the USN uses). For larger numbers of fighters with low fuel volumes drogue refuelling is better because for them fuel transfer time makes up a smaller fraction of the entire refuelling cycle, and with wing pods on the tanker you have the option of refuelling two fighters in parallel.

So boom refuelling would be a sensible development for China's H-XX and force multipliers like AWACS, tankers and transports, but the tactical fighters better stay with the drogue - the USAF is NOT an example to emulate in this regard! The only reason why they just about get away with it is that they are literally *awash* in tankers, for the historical reasons outlined above (for a time, SAC maintained a tanker/bomber ratio of almost 1:1, and those KC-135s still form the mainstay of the US tanker force today). It's probably THE area where the USAF capability advantage over the rest of the world is greatest, actually. IIRC a recent study came to the conclusion that for the purpose of refuelling fighters a drogue equipped tanker fleet could be almost 20% smaller in number while meeting the same demand. That's a lot of money, even before we come to the cost (in China's case) of converting existing fighter inventories to the boom, or the question of interoperability.

If the air force does adopt a boom capable air tanker I definitely do not expect every aircraft in their inventory to adopt the boom refuelling method. But there are some aircraft for some missions where boom refuelling may be worth the extra development and implementation cost.

One would certainly hope so - the boom is just not the optimum solution for tactical aircraft.
 
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