China's transport, tanker & heavy lift aircraft

MwRYum said:

Unless there's a rock-solid alliance with the US, commercial platforms that are acquired and converted to national defense/government use can't rely on original manufacturer's repair anyway, so for the Chinese government that is within the calculations. The good news is that part and supplies for commercial jets are readily available in open markets, shopping through the national carrier.

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The real concern is that chinese entering the commercial aircraft industry and stay there. learning the large scale system integration that is necessarlly for staying there.

DoD is not worrying about couple of 737s converted with a satcom dome on top. this is not game changer.

US govt (and boeing ) is worrying about 1) chinese taking away a big chunk of commercial aviation industry and hurt boeing . and 2) Chinese made commercial airliners became foundation for AWACS, Tankers, Jammers, SensorCraft, Strategic airlifters. etc. etc. Commercial airliner based platform is what has been the really THE foundation of air power projection. with out which PLAAF will always just be a bulldog on a short leash.

because, you know, with out that massive fleet of KC-135s, those B52s can't hope possiblly to attack soviet union!

i.e. said:

The real concern is that chinese entering the commercial aircraft industry and stay there. learning the large scale system integration that is necessarlly for staying there.

DoD is not worrying about couple of 737s converted with a satcom dome on top. this is not game changer.

US govt (and boeing ) is worrying about 1) chinese taking away a big chunk of commercial aviation industry and hurt boeing . and 2) Chinese made commercial airliners became foundation for AWACS, Tankers, Jammers, SensorCraft, Strategic airlifters. etc. etc. Commercial airliner based platform is what has been the really THE foundation of air power projection. with out which PLAAF will always just be a bulldog on a short leash.

because, you know, with out that massive fleet of KC-135s, those B52s can't hope possiblly to attack soviet union!

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Think their concern is facing competition in the Chinese market, as the market in the rest of the world is already carved up by Boeing and Airbus, whereas China's still has potential for growth, if the economic growth can keep up in the 2 decades ahead. If they really want to deny China's chance to challenge them, all they need to do is to make the FAA and EASA not issue the required type-certificates, which will deny MIC planes from practically anywhere beyond China's borders. Taking it up to WTO China may try, but I doubt the dispute would rule in China's favor.

Though ultimately China-made civilian planes, if proved worthy, will naturally take up military applications, a market that neither Boeing nor Airbus has a chance in get into anyway, not even when Hell freezes over. So it all comes down to how much the budget Chinese government willing to commit, and how competent is the envisioned platform they're making.

ie please take a moment and a breath.
One not all tankers and AEW are based on commercial transports just the most common western types . Bombers and transports are also used. The PLAAF has been using those types for decades.
Two the China is not the only nation who is on the controled export list. And such lists are common even China is not above such tactics its just part of the game.
Three the parts and technologys used in a airliner are of a type that can only be used for a transport. So once more I point back to the VVIP 767 and state that if the parts are slated and typed for export on the open market and and in this case have no special military mode. Then in all likelyhood the deal will in through, and as long as the Chinese dont mount missiles on the wings their is not a whole lot the US can do about it.

Finally the US is replacing its KC135s ever so slowly, B52 is only really used as bomb and cruise missile trucks the B2 more or less retired B52 from penetration roles and the USSR is better left in its grave.

TerraN_EmpirE said:

ie please take a moment and a breath.
One not all tankers and AEW are based on commercial transports just the most common western types . Bombers and transports are also used. The PLAAF has been using those types for decades.
Two the China is not the only nation who is on the controled export list. And such lists are common even China is not above such tactics its just part of the game.
Three the parts and technologys used in a airliner are of a type that can only be used for a transport. So once more I point back to the VVIP 767 and state that if the parts are slated and typed for export on the open market and and in this case have no special military mode. Then in all likelyhood the deal will in through, and as long as the Chinese dont mount missiles on the wings their is not a whole lot the US can do about it.

Finally the US is replacing its KC135s ever so slowly, B52 is only really used as bomb and cruise missile trucks the B2 more or less retired B52 from penetration roles and the USSR is better left in its grave.

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I don't thin you get it. the key is an commercially viable industrial base 1) as an end to itself, 2) as an basis to provide means for projecting strategic power.

kc135/B52 was a cold war example... duhhh...

if China can ever get its commercial aviation industry to where its commerical shipbuilding industry is at, then that would be a great day for PLA.

tphuang said:

if China can ever get its commercial aviation industry to where its commerical shipbuilding industry is at, then that would be a great day for PLA.

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Once again their archilles heel is high bypass turbofans. Once they get it together in that department, I think a lot of things will fall into place for them as far as their aerospace industry is concern.

i.e. said:

I don't thin you get it. the key is an commercially viable industrial base 1) as an end to itself, 2) as an basis to provide means for projecting strategic power.

kc135/B52 was a cold war example... duhhh...

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Okay IE really. This is not the Game Changer you want to make it.
The Russian Irkut MS-21 has a larger Seat load. the Shanghai Y-10 Canned oh so long ago had a more impressive load.
This is Not a threat to Airbus or Boeing ( who dominate the heavier classes 767,777,787,747,747-8/A330,A340,A350 A380)
This is just another maker Joining the Competitive narrow body 170 ( actually 2 seats Shy) seat liner. A base That right now has Airbus, Boeing, Embraer, JSC United Aircraft Corporation, Tupolev and maybe a few more. It's A busy place with lots of demand.
Second in the 1950's You could use parts of a transport to make a bomber sure but today the two mission sets are distinct and not crossing over. The Roles you can convert a Commercial liner into are limited. AEW, AWACS, ISR (Jstar), Command and Control, VVIP, Tanker, Sigint/Elint and armed ASW ( think P8). It's A bus and a School bus at that not a Strategic threat.

In Addition a number of Critical parts are American and likely internationally Sourced shooting your argument full of Holes.
Finally Competition is part of a Free market, It keeps prices Down and allows innovation.
If China wants In Good. If China Thinks they can go bigger, they are welcome to it. If they think that they have placed themselves in the place where they are breaking the Duality of Airbus and Boeing making it A.B.C. They are kidding themselves. It's not their not yet. Maybe if they got started on Comac 929 or 939 They could claim that. As is Comac is par for the Course.

The importance of Comac 919 is not so much dual use technology or its adaptability for military use, rather the project management experience it would give to a new generation of Chinese aeronautic engineers. Complex military projects fail mainly due to poor project management rather than technological reasons. Take the case of Indian military industrial complex. India has access to all the Western technologies they want, yet fail to deliver service ready products in one project after anther. I think the main reason for the Indian failure is because their MIC is still wholly reliant on government funding and insulated from market demands and pressure. Chinese MIC on the other hand, lost the iron rice bowl after the market reforms of the 80's and 90's. Chinese companies had to compete for international sales, respond to customer demands, and deliver products on time and on budget. That's why China have had more successful military projects compare to India, or compare to China during the Maoist era. Future weapon and aerospace projects will be even more complex. That's why it is important for Chinese industry to gain more project management experience by going through the whole process of developing a large airliner that can compete in the international market.

thats right.
system integration on a industrial scale. this is the key.

TerraN_EmpirE whatever you want to believe thats fine with me.

i.e. said:

thats right.
system integration on a industrial scale. this is the key.

TerraN_EmpirE whatever you want to believe thats fine with me.

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Alright that is a whole different bowl of rice but one they were already eating from remember the ARJ21. Something like 19 industrial partners. Its just another step along the road and a good sign for future developments.