China's Space Program Thread II

Andy1974

Senior Member
Registered Member
Sustaining two space stations are expensive
I don’t think so, they can be kept close together, it’s no difference. It’s exactly the same process, same number of launches for construction etc to expand the station as it is to make a new one.

One of the stations could even be unmanned for long periods.

They would need a way to transfer between the stations, or alternatively they can just dock the stations together when needed.

The big advantage of a 2nd station is that experiments can be isolated, so that microgravity experiments are not disturbed by the stations movements or other processes.

It would also act a a lifeboat.
 

gadgetcool5

Senior Member
Registered Member
If China is able to bring down the launch cost to the space station with reusable rockets, then at some point in the future commercialization could help pay for maintaining the space station and thus free up more national resources towards deep space exploration. A country only has so much money to spend on space when there are other needs like poverty, health care, etc. Getting private money to contribute could play a big part in filling that gap.
 

Helius

Senior Member
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Using the formula here
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,

the Specific Impulse comes out to be 383 which is way bit too high. Obviously, the 500-ton thrust is not all through the 115-second test.

Anyway, the rocket motor with a mass of just 150 tons proved to be very powerful, able to put out 500 tons of thrust.
383s Isp doesn't look right.

How did you arrive at the exhaust velocity that gave you 383s without knowing its delta-v and vice versa? Or the mass flow rate for that matter?
 

antiterror13

Brigadier
I don’t think so, they can be kept close together, it’s no difference. It’s exactly the same process, same number of launches for construction etc to expand the station as it is to make a new one.

One of the stations could even be unmanned for long periods.

They would need a way to transfer between the stations, or alternatively they can just dock the stations together when needed.

The big advantage of a 2nd station is that experiments can be isolated, so that microgravity experiments are not disturbed by the stations movements or other processes.

It would also act a a lifeboat.

I like the idea of 2 space station, also for redundancy and backup from sabotage from a jealous hostile nation ;)
 

taxiya

Brigadier
Registered Member
Another report by CAE (Chinese Academy of Engineering)
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HTPB, NEPE, BAMO, PBAN and the likes are different chemical binding processes to the primary ammonium perchlorate (AP) solid fuel mixture. They have scantly anything to do with generational differences.
I understand that the word generation is subjective, so I won't defend it. But one thing is certain, NEPE comes many years after HTPB, the amount of effort is there, whether it worth to be called a new generation is a personal matter.

In the eyes of N15 team leader it is a new generation.

Quote from the report
1985年7月,崔国良与时任科技委常委钱维崧联名向有关领导递交报告,建议组织力量加快研制NEPE型推进剂,为我国第二代固体发动机提供先进能源。
1985, Cui Guoliang ...... proposed to develop NEPE for our 2nd generation SRB.

The N15 that CZ-11 uses is derived from DF-31's which is HTPB-based, which incidentally has a slightly higher specific impulse over the SSSRB, which is PBAN-based, which is newer and supposed to have higher performance than HTPB.
Then there's NEPE, which also goes by PEG/NG (Polythylene Glycol Nitroglycerine), which is even newer, but I don't know of any rockets that use that specific mix other than Trident II.
This is confusing, you are saying NEPE is newer than PBAN which is then newer than HTPB, you are also saying that N15 is HTPB. This contradicts to the paper I quoted earlier (大型固体火箭发动机技术发展展望 2007) which said N-15 is on the same technical level as NEPE instead of HTPB. It is also contradictory that an HTPB based SRB has higher specific impulse than a newer PBAN based.

Also from the CAE report,

N-15/15B高能推进剂、新型高能推进剂、碳纤维复合材料壳体(全复合裙)、适应高压强推进剂及其配套绝热层衬层、延伸喷管技术、喷管轻质C/C材料扩张段、耐烧蚀喉衬及复合材料增强件柔性接头等。不仅如此,发动机关键材料国产化程度进一步提高,高能N-15推进剂扩大应用范围,发动机与弹体在性能与结构方面关系更为协调等。从而使未来战略固体发动机综合水平基本达到美国MX和Trident D-5固体发动机水平。
N-15 will make the future ICBM to reach the same level as MX and Trident D-5 (which uses NEPE).

经过充分而审慎的论证,1990年6月,在国防科工委固体推进剂专业组会议上,形成了《对我国高能固体推进剂发展建议》。1991年6月17日,国防科工委正式批准成立有航天、兵器、北京理工大学以及中科院、化工部五个系统、多家单位参加的NEPE高能固体推进剂联合攻关组,崔国良担任组长,负责制定总体技术方案和重大技术问题的决策。

经过七年的不懈攻关,1998年1月,国防科工委批复同意《NEPE高能推进剂全尺寸发动机先期技术演示验证任务书》。6月30日,先期技术演示验证试验发动机试车圆满成功。演示验证鉴定确认:推进剂的能量特征和燃速压强指数达到国际先进水平,使我国成为继美国之后掌握该项技术的国家,此项技术将推动我国新型机动固体洲际导弹的研制进程。
China's NEPE equivalent (N-15) engine started and tested successfully in 1998. The later paper in 2007 reveals the designation being N-15.


I have no direct supporting information to say what propellent CZ-11 or DF-31 use. But the 2007 (written in 2006) paper has this sentence

目前高能N-15推进剂已成功应用于战略型号固体发动机
N-15 propellant has been successfully used in strategic SRB.


So after 16 years of successful service in PLARF, I think it is safe to say that N-15 is used in the 500t SRB, or most likely the cheaper variant N-15B.

The difference of specific impulse between the earlier HTPB and later N-15/NEPE are not neglectable. I have come across some figures about 10s higher.
 
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Helius

Senior Member
Registered Member
Like I said HTPB, NEPE etc are binding processes. They're just different biding agents to the solid fuel mix which comes in powder form, and they only make up like 8-10% of the total with the majority being ammonium perchlorate. It's what gives the fuel mix the plasticity to turn into a useable solid fuel. These are essentially plastic explosives a la C-4 repurposed as propellants via controlled explosions.

There's not only one type of HTPB, itself a mixture that can be re-formulated into many varieties to suit the specific needs and parameters of a given fuel mix. The fact HTPB has been around for a long time is irrelevant as the polybutadiene base continues to be refined depending on use case.

PBAN is the same PB base re-tweaked for the SSSRB during the Space Shuttle era. NEPE is a different mixture entirely that primarily uses nitroglycerin as a base that supposedly squeezes more performance from the overall fuel mix as it doesn't require as much binding agent and plasticiser, so that a higher proportion is taken up by the primary oxidiser which is still ammonium perchlorate. The famous one being NEPE-75 inside the Trident II that has 75% solids, hence the name.

As I'm not a chemical engineer, please don't make me explain how these chemicals and mixtures differ in specific properties. All I know from my reading of the subject is that China has been using HTPB as the primarily solid fuel for missile boosters since the DF-21 days. Plenty of research has been done in China on NEPE, for sure. There're rumours DF-41 uses NEPE but these are still rumours.

As I said HTPB isn't one type of fuel as it continually gets refined and repurposed. Best example that's relevant to this topic is again the SRBs from the Ariane series, from the P241 EAP on Ariane 5 to the new P120 EAP on Ariane 6 where they all utilise AP/HTPB as fuel, and these SRBs are able to achieve higher specific impulses and fuel efficiencies over the SSSRB which uses a "newer" fuel that is PBAN-based.


As for N15, all I got from your quotes is that it having an "equivalent performance to NEPE" =/= it being NEPE.

Here's a research paper published by a team from several Chinese institutes, amongst them notably were the PLA Army Engineering University and the 713 Institute of CSIC i.e. China Shipbuilding Industry Corporation... interesting combo there to say the least, probably something to do with a certain "big wave" and a certain "easterly wind" :p

Anyway, the paper talks about a new model for testing the elasticity of N15 under strain the Chinese team has developed, which is based on existing methodologies designed for HTPB-based solid propellants as their chemical compositions are the same/similar, and it references N15 as a HTPB propellant containing 70% solids in their tests.

Not a single mention of NEPE or other binders, nor would you expect them to as the chemical makeup would be different. This is as best of an English source with any authority that I could find.

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Quickie

Colonel



383s Isp doesn't look right.

How did you arrive at the exhaust velocity that gave you 383s without knowing its delta-v and vice versa? Or the mass flow rate for that matter?

Using the impulse formula at the link.

Mass flow rate would be the total mass of the propellant in the rocket motor that was expended in the stated 115-second burning time period.

The specific impulse of 383 comes from assuming the 500-ton thrust and the fuel mass flow rate remains constant throughout the test which in my opinion is probably unlikely.
 

Helius

Senior Member
Registered Member
Using the impulse formula at the link.

Mass flow rate would be the total mass of the propellant in the rocket motor that was expended in the stated 115-second burning time period.

The specific impulse of 383 comes from assuming the 500-ton thrust and the fuel mass flow rate remains constant throughout the test which in my opinion is probably unlikely.
Yeah but how? Where did you get exhaust velocity from when we don't have the delta-v for the SRM, and vice versa?

Unless there's a different formula I'm not aware of, burn time alone doesn't give you enough metrics as you can't really calculate with any "accuracy" the mass flow rate without the volume of the canister or the density of the propellant itself.
 
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