China's Space Program Thread II

gadgetcool5

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The Soviet Union had
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. Clearly there is more to the story than just the number of orbital launches.
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tells more of the story. Launch cost is the biggest factor.

SpaceX also launched quite a bit of satellites for international customers which unfortunately are mostly inaccessible to China.

SpaceX launch rate is likely limited by its capacity to build rockets even if there is demand to launch more payloads at any period, whereas China will only build the rockets/launchers as necessary when there are payloads to launch such that the launch rate is not an indication of rocket building capacity.
Is there a place to look up which countries, if any, have satellites launched by China? And how does Chinese launch cost compare to SpaceX?
 

Michael90

Junior Member
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While SpaceX may have conducted more launches in 2023, it's important to remember that China's space program has been steadily advancing, and the number of launches alone doesn't always tell the whole story. China's space missions have been diverse, including lunar exploration, Mars missions, and space station construction. Furthermore, the mass put in orbit is just one metric; the significance of these missions also depends on their objectives and the scientific and technological advancements they represent. Both SpaceX and China's space program have made substantial contributions to space exploration in their own ways.
Agree. I think Chinas missions being more diverse than SpaceX is normal. Since China is a country as a whole with its own Space program while spaceX is just a private company(albeit the dominant one in the US). So it's normal that spaceX missions are not as diverse as China's. The only way they can be that diverse is if the US government awards them contracts for such missions, else there isn't much economic value for SpaceX to do such missions. However I will admit that the missions/contracts that have been awarded to spaceX have all been successfully carried out and in record time. They definitely have an advantage in the way they proceed with their projects.
 

Michael90

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tells more of the story
Agree. However, even here SpaceX seems to be way ahead of any company or country for that matter. Which is quite impressive.
However we shouldn't forget US private company rocket lab who is also rising quite well and is aiming for over a dozen launch this year(they have launch just 10 times so far, due to an apparent failure during their last launch). So I think private space industry will be more interesting to watch than state owned ones its good that China opened up its space sector to private entreprises. We will see how they will grow this coming years, they might even start displacing the state owned space companies who had a quasi monopoly until a few years ago . So the coming years will be interesting for space industry.
 

tankphobia

Senior Member
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There is no need to be too cynical, spaceX has the advantage of decades of US expertise and infrastructure behind it. We can see now that China is rapidly building out its space infrastructure with private companies flourishing, it's only a matter of time before payload/launches explode in volume as capacity matches demand with private enterprise rockets reaching maturity. China space industry has come a very long way from the days of modified ICBMs as primary carriers.
 

taxiya

Brigadier
Registered Member
Please tell me, is the hangtianyuan search and rescue service part of the PLA, or CMSA, or something else?
PLA and CMS because CMS is under the hood part of PLA. Don't know why you use CMSA as the abbreviation.

I believe it falls under the jurisdiction of the Emergency Management Ministry alongside firefighting, disaster relief, and related activities.

The rescue service belongs to Jiu Quan launch center, see the subtitle in the following CCTV footage.
"Jiuquan satellite launch centre search and rescure team"
9a078cff80374e6ca256a2237dc27e27_16x9.jpg


Under the civilian facade, the launch centre is part of PLA strategic support corps (战略支援部队).
 
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taxiya

Brigadier
Registered Member
@Asug and @Wrought

addition to #2655 after timeout

It is worth to remember that there is NO point of asking questions like "whether these space programs are part of PLA." This is China, not western country. A highly important strategical and sensitive agency is controlled by the central government as tight as PLA, they operate according to the diciplines of PLA, they born out of PLA, in Chinese term "militarily adminstrated", they likely are "two facades, same people" ("两块招牌,一套班子") just like CMC is both civilian (party) and PLA organs.

@Asug, now I see the abbreviation CMSA where A stands for administration, however the loggo on their website is CMS and their web domain name is CMSE (E is probably Engineering). So I personally choose CMS.
 
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by78

General
The Soviet Union had
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
. Clearly there is more to the story than just the number of orbital launches.
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
tells more of the story. Launch cost is the biggest factor.


Is there a place to look up which countries, if any, have satellites launched by China? And how does Chinese launch cost compare to SpaceX?

Agree. I think Chinas missions being more diverse than SpaceX is normal. Since China is a country as a whole with its own Space program while spaceX is just a private company(albeit the dominant one in the US). So it's normal that spaceX missions are not as diverse as China's. The only way they can be that diverse is if the US government awards them contracts for such missions, else there isn't much economic value for SpaceX to do such missions. However I will admit that the missions/contracts that have been awarded to spaceX have all been successfully carried out and in record time. They definitely have an advantage in the way they proceed with their projects.

Agree. However, even here SpaceX seems to be way ahead of any company or country for that matter. Which is quite impressive.
However we shouldn't forget US private company rocket lab who is also rising quite well and is aiming for over a dozen launch this year(they have launch just 10 times so far, due to an apparent failure during their last launch). So I think private space industry will be more interesting to watch than state owned ones its good that China opened up its space sector to private entreprises. We will see how they will grow this coming years, they might even start displacing the state owned space companies who had a quasi monopoly until a few years ago . So the coming years will be interesting for space industry.

This isn't a SpaceX thread. Take your off-topic discussions somewhere else.
 

huemens

Junior Member
Registered Member
Is there a place to look up which countries, if any, have satellites launched by China? And how does Chinese launch cost compare to SpaceX?

Most of the Chinese launches are Long March rockets. On the private side one of the most frequent Chinese rockets is the solid rocket Ceres-1. Ceres-1 has a LEO capacity of 400KG and charges $4 million per launch. To compare with a western rocket in the same class, Electron from Rocket Lab has a LEO capacity of 300KG and costs $7.5 million per launch. Electron is a partially reusable liquid fueled rocket, although I am not sure if they have reused any yet. They have recovered a few.
 
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by78

General
Some presentation slides on Tianlong-3 from Tianbing Technology. First launch is planned for late May of 2024.

- Two stages
- 1st stage uses seven TH-12 engines
- 2nd stage uses one TH-12V engine
- Payload capacity to LEO (800km): ≥ 10 tons

53042837805_00c06b25e5_k.jpg
53042938923_ee98ff5b62_k.jpg
53042938928_3da929fecf_k.jpg

Tianbing (SpacePioneer) has announced that the maiden launch of TL-3 is scheduled for June 2024.

TL-3 reusable launch vehicle has a diameter of 3.8m, with a takeoff mass of 590 tons, capacity to SSO of 14 tons, and capacity to LEO of 17 tons.

The company aims for 30 TL-3 launches annually by 2027.

TL-3)大型液体运载火箭将于2024年6月首飞,首飞任务轨道SSO太阳同步轨道(500km)。TL-3直径3.8m,起飞质量590t,SSO运力14t,LEO运力17t,采用大推力可复用...jpg
 

tacoburger

Junior Member
Registered Member
One thing to note is that a good chunk of China's launches are of small to medium scale rockets that can carry tiny payloads, if you look at total mass to orbit, China falls even further behind.

Anyway, the important thing here is to focus on reusability. Which right now, looks like the chinese private space sector looks to be closer to developing, faster than the state launch service providers, so I hope that they don't get shafted in favor of long march rockets. Which I mean by that is that it seems that CALT's answer to megaconstellations and SpaceX is just mass production of proven expendable rockets.

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The country is constructing an unprecedented rocket assembly plant capable of producing 50 Long March 8 rockets a year, according to scientists involved in the project.
Once completed next year, the mega factory on the tropical island Hainan will nearly double China’s annual launch capacity – already one of the world’s largest.

It's basically their plan for launching their own megaconstellation without resuable rockets, just scale costs down via economy of scale and an already mature technology and rocket . 50 additional long march 8 rockets a year is impressive, will certainly put a lot of payload into orbit and is intended to replace the aging hypergolic long march rockets but at the same time, it could take the wind out of the private sector's sails. It might seem like a good idea today when there's not a single chinese resuable rocket flying, but that could change very fast in 2-4 years.

If 1-2, or even 3 private companies get their Falcon 9 tier workhorse launching dozens of times a year in 2-4 years, then at best this mega long march 8 factory becomes basically obsolete and useless and that's probably billions of dollars wasted. Considering that the long march 8 isn't designed to be reusable at all, even a more expensive expandable medium lift launcher that a company like Ispace flying a dozen times is more worth it in the long run since that's vauable data and money going to into potentially making said rocket resuable in the future.

At worse, the long march 8 strangles the private sector in it's crib by taking most of the launch contracts in the next 2-4 years, espically if they are given speical treatment seeing as they're a government rocket. This is worrying because we're still in the early stages of the chinese private space sector, none of the private companies have reused a rocket yet, some haven't even launched a liquid fueled rocket yet, most of their resuable rockets are going to be pretty small and expandable at first, their production costs at going to be pretty high due to still sorting out their supply chain and techologny and doing R&D, as compared to an already mature rocket techologny like the long march series. If they are going purely at this via free market competition and launch costs, the long march rockets win in the short term, if they're bias towards the long march rockets because they're both government organisations, than it's even more titled towards the long march 8.

And considering the amount of money needed in this field and the cost of developing new technology and scaling up their production facilties, this private companies have to win a lot of contracts to sustain and upgrade themselves, they can't be thrown the scraps that CALT and CASC can't be bothered to eat. They don't have Elon's large pool of money, fame and Starlink business to support themselves, and they can't venture much outside of the domestic launch market like SpaceX can. The majority of the launch contracts should go to the most promising companies espically in such a critical time, until they develop enough to stand by themselves. I hope that China recogonzies this and gives the appropriate amount of support to the private sector.
 
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