China's Space Program News Thread

[Vlad Plasmius]

Re: When will China go to the moon?

No violation of UN law by a permanent member of the UNSC has been of as great as importance as the mining of resources in our Solar System. People won't do much about a country like Iraq being attacked, but they will over future means to sustain their own survival.

Well, what are they gonna do? I believe it was Scott Adams who described how in his perfect society all but one of the guns in the world would be destroyed and that would be his gun. That way, if anyone wanted to question him they'd have to remember he has the only gun.

If anyone wants to question China or the U.S., they'll just cut them off from whatever their source is. Any nation powerful enough to be a threat would be highly dependant on foreign sources of energy. Any that aren't, well, they probably won't even care.

Who's to say all three players will get there at the same time? It's much more realistic that a single power like the US will get there first and start operations. Then the others would start screaming and banging on the table like there was no tomorrow.

I don't know, we don't really have the same tenacity as China. Almost like we've lost our passion for space. I think China is more likely to end up there by the time they plan than we are. However, I imagine there won't be a very large gap in time. Russia may get up there pretty quick too. They have far more experience than China so it won't take them as long after deciding to go to the Moon. Europe will probably be last, though they also may get up there around the same time, don't know.

Besides, do you really think they'd work together to screw over everyone else? No way. They'd back their own allies against the others.

Exactly. Each would hand out to whoever they liked, but cut off those they don't. It would be under the pretext of giving it to everyone, but politicized and turned into a competition. China would try to win favor by using its energy sources, we'd try to do win favor with ours, and Russia would do the same.

Then humanity won't survive long, because without co-operation it will rip itself apart in the coming decades/centuries. Anyone who survived would have a pretty miserable existence. Perhaps the future would be brighter if people actively encouraged humanity working together, rather than just make jaded comments......

Actually, our general lack of desire to cooperate with everyone has been the main reason for our development. Right now humanity has no real reason to develop except to show up the Joneses as it were. We first went to the moon because we wanted to rub it in the Soviets' noses. Now we want to beat the commies again, except now we have a reason to keep going after only a few visits.

 

[bd popeye]

Re: When will China go to the moon?

Space co-operation? Of course . according to this article in April 2006 NASA invited the PRC to take part next week in an invitation-only Exploration Strategy Workshop to be held in Washington. Maybe something we don't know about was discussed to make space exploration benifical for the whole Earth.

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NASA has asked the China National Space Administration to take part next week in an invitation-only Exploration Strategy Workshop to be held in Washington.

The confab is seen by NASA as the first step in a series of activities planned for 2006 that will focus on defining a global space exploration strategy for robotic and human lunar exploration, including the role of the moon as a stepping stone to Mars and other destinations. This event will bring together representatives from a broad range of communities to work in multidisciplinary teams, exchanging ideas on the strategy for exploration.

The workshop is an outgrowth from President Bush’s visionary agenda for exploration of the moon, Mars, and beyond — a task he gave NASA in January 2004.

“Consistent with the vision’s mandate to pursue international cooperation, we are hosting 13 international space agencies, including China’s, next week at an exploration workshop,” said Melissa Mathews, spokeswoman for NASA's Office of External Relations.

NASA Administrator Mike Griffin was invited to visit China earlier this month by the China National Space Administration, Mathews said, and NASA is considering the invitation. “As for dates, there’s nothing more specific than ‘fall’ to report to you at this point,” she told Space.com.

Regarding where things stand today in terms of NASA’s cooperation with China, Mathews said: “Generally speaking, NASA is constrained in its ability to discuss new civil space cooperation with China until China addresses issues of concern to the U.S. government. Our current involvement with China is limited and consists of such things as low-level Earth science exchanges of data. There is no human spaceflight-related cooperation under consideration at this time.”

Cooperative agreements
On Thursday, Chinese President Hu Jintao was meeting with President Bush at the White House.

As a prelude to President Hu’s visit, the United States and the People’s Republic of China on Tuesday signed a protocol that extends for five years a number of bilateral science and technology cooperative agreements.

The protocol agreement was signed by John Marburger, presidential science adviser and director of the White House Office of Science and Technology Policy; and Xu Guanha, China’s minister of science and technology.

“The extension enables the continuation of the ongoing exchange of scientific and technical knowledge, the pursuit of advanced and applied scientific and technical projects, and the augmentation of scientific and technical capabilities,” according to a U.S. State Department fact sheet. Areas identified for continued and potential future cooperation include:

Fisheries
Emerging and infectious diseases, such as avian influenza and HIV/AIDS
Earth and atmospheric sciences
Basic research in physics, chemistry and agriculture
A variety of energy-related areas
Geology
Health
Civil industrial technology
Disaster research
Roster of space projects
It's not clear how many of these areas may benefit by increased U.S.-China space cooperation, but China does have an impressive roster of satellite projects in the works.

At the recent 22nd National Space Symposium in Colorado Springs, Colo., Luo Ge, vice administrator of the Chinese space agency, noted that in the next five to eight years, his country will be launching about 100 satellites, including meteorological and Earth remote sensing craft, as well as constellations of Earth-observing and disaster mitigation spacecraft.

Luo also spotlighted China’s multi-step program for lunar exploration, which is being kick-started next year by that country’s first lunar orbiter mission. By 2012, he said, China space planners will be landing a rover on the moon surface. And in 2017, the lunar exploration plans call for robotic lunar sample return.

Regarding the opening of a window in U.S.-China space cooperation, there are indications, slight they may be, of a potential — yet small — change in policy, said a leading China space watcher, Joan Johnson-Freese, chairwoman of the Department of National Security Studies at the Naval War College in Newport, R.I.

“I am cautiously optimistic, which is more optimistic than I’ve been in the past,” Johnson-Freese told Space.com in an earlier interview.

Security dilemma
U.S.-China space relations are a classic security dilemma, where two states are drawn toward conflict though neither really wants it, Johnson-Freese explained. The reasons are fairly straightforward and strongly influenced by the technology involved, Johnson-Freese suggested.

“Specifically, there is no distinction between space technology for civil or military use, since 95 percent of space technology is dual-use, and further — and really problematic — there is often little or no distinction between military technology that is offensive or defensive in nature,” Johnson-Freese explained. “So, fear of being exploited drives countries to view actions of others in zero-sum terms.”

All this is further exacerbated when there is a predisposition by one state to view the other as an adversary, or even a “potential” adversary. While strategically the United States talks about working with China, there are still other voices that talk about China as a potential near-peer competitor, due to Taiwan, the growth of China's military, resource competition and other issues of alarm, Johnson-Freese explained.

All that said, she added: “It is very likely that the lens through which the U.S. — as the currently dominant space power — will view any expansion of Chinese space power will be a military one.”

Security dilemmas, Johnson-Freese remarked, are by their nature difficult to deal with, but not impossible. She saw good signs in the recent visit of the bipartisan congressional delegation to China and talks about potential space cooperation in areas like astronaut rescue and environmental monitoring.

However, a change of policy to include cooperative space activities is still a White House call, Johnson-Freese said. A first step on this path, she counseled, is simply understanding the Chinese better and allowing them to know Americans better through dialogue

 

[Sea Dog]

Re: When will China go to the moon?

Global cooperation is a pipe dream.

I don't believe that at all. I think there is a more concerted effort to bring more participants into the ISS for scientific and technical space cooperation right now. Based on the article above, the USA is looking to foster some sort of cooperation with China in space.

I do believe China has a national goal of a manned mission to the moon. It would be good if cooperation got many participants to field a lunar base much inn the same spirit as ISS. I certainly believe that's doable.

 

[Vlad Plasmius]

Re: When will China go to the moon?

I don't believe that at all. I think there is a more concerted effort to bring more participants into the ISS for scientific and technical space cooperation right now. Based on the article above, the USA is looking to foster some sort of cooperation with China in space.

There are desires to cooperate, but every nation has its own goals and sees its own personal development as a status symbol. Many groups and nations have plans for their own actions in space.

I do believe China has a national goal of a manned mission to the moon. It would be good if cooperation got many participants to field a lunar base much inn the same spirit as ISS. I certainly believe that's doable.

Unlikely, though it is doable.

 

[oringo]

Re: When will China go to the moon?

There is another potential reason for us to go to the moon. That is, to use moon as a stepping stone for landing on other planets such as Mars. Launching from the moon is a lot easier than launching from the earth. There are plenty of materials on the moon that can be mined to produce fuel and other necessities. There are also possibilities that moon contains water ice on the dark side. If we establish a moon base that can automatically mine the materials, then we can launch Mars-bound supply ships from the moon, and astronaut-carrying vessels from the earth or ISS.:nana:

 

[tphuang]

Re: chinese satelittes

this is probably one of the more important things to come out of Zhuhai, the announcement of the Compass (Beidou) navigation system.

I got some pictures.

news on this

BEIJING, Nov 2, 2006 (AFP) - China announced Thursday plans to
build a satellite navigation system that will include up to 35
satellites and be working in the Asian region by 2008, state press
said.
The system, called "Beidou", will include five geostationary
earth orbit satellites and 30 medium earth orbit satellites, Xinhua
news agency said.
Navigation services open to commercial customers will provide
users with positioning accuracy within 10 meters (33 feet), velocity
accuracy within 0.2 meters per second and timing accuracy within 50
nanoseconds, the report said.
No details on the costs of the system were reported.
It was also not clear how the Chinese system would rival the
American global positioning satellite system or the EU's Galileo
satellite navigational system which is expected to be built with
Chinese participation.
China would launch two "Compass" navigation satellites next year
as part of the Beidou project, Xinhua said.
The system is expected to cover China and parts of neighbouring
countries by 2008, before being expanded into a global network of
satellites, it said.

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BEIJING: In an effort to end Western monopoly, China has started building its own Global Satellite Navigation System, 'Compass', which will also cover parts of neighbouring countries.

The planned network, also referred to as Beidou Navigation System, entails the launch of five geostationary and 30 mobile satellites.

China plans to launch two Compass navigation satellites at the beginning of next year. The system, which will provide highly accurate positioning and time references, will cover China and parts of neighbouring countries by 2008 before being developed into a global network.

The system will provide two navigation services. The Open Services is designed to provide users with positioning accuracy within 10 meters, velocity accuracy with 0.2 metre per second and timing accuracy within 50 nanoseconds.

The Authorised System will offer "safer" positioning, velocity, timing communications for authorised users.

China is willing to cooperate with other countries in developing its satellite navigation industry to allow the Compass system to operate with other global satellite positioning systems, the report said.

China has already joined the European Union (EU) and the European Space Agency's 3.5 billion-euro Galileo Project to develop a satellite-navigation system independent of the US military global positioning system (GPS) monopoly.

I guess important stuff
5 GEO satellites
30 MEO satellites (compared to 30 MEO satellites for Galileo)
for civilians, 10 m accuracy, 0.2 m/s accuracy (this is better than Glonass)
and for authorised users, higher accuracy.

 

[tphuang]

Re: chinese satelittes

great news, one more beidou satellite getting launched.

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XICHANG, Sichuan - China successfully put a navigation satellite into orbit early Saturday from the Xichang Satellite Launch Center in southwest China's Sichuan Province.

The carrier rocket, Long March 3-A, blasted off at 0:28 a.m. ( Beijing Time). The satellite separated from the rocket about 24 minutes later.

Data from the Xi'an satellite monitoring center showed that the satellite had accurately entered its orbit.

It is China's fourth Beidou (Big Dipper) navigation experimental satellite in orbit. The previous three were sent in space on Oct. 31, 2000, Dec. 21, 2000 and May 25, 2003 respectively.

Experts said the Beidou satellite navigation experimental system is operating well and has played a significant role in cartography, telecommunications, water conservation, transportation, fishery, prospecting, forest fire monitoring and national security.

The fourth Beidou navigation satellite, serving as a backup satellite for the Beidou satellite navigation experimental system, may replace the first Beidou satellite, when necessary, continuing to provide all-weather and all-day navigation and positioning information.

Experts said China is establishing the Compass Navigation Satellite System on the basis of the Beidou satellite navigation experimental system. The compass system will in 2008 fully meet the demand of satellite navigation for clients in China and neighboring regions.

The Compass Navigation Satellite System will gradually extend to be a global satellite navigation and positioning system after network building and experiments, experts said.

The compass system will be mainly used for economic purposes, providing efficient navigation and positioning services in transportation, meteorology, petroleum prospecting, forest fire monitoring, disaster forecast, telecommunications and public security, among others.

China is one of the several countries in the world capable of developing such a system on its own.

The system can help clients know their location at any time and place with accurate longitude, latitude and altitude data.

The satellite and carrier rocket were developed respectively by the China Academy of Space Technology and China Academy of Launch Vehicle Technology, which are under the China Aerospace Science and Technology Corporation.

The launch represents the 95th flight of China's Long March series of rockets.

according to some on Chinese forum, this can be used as part of the Beidou 1 or Beidou 2 system. We will see.

 

[Totoro]

Re: chinese satelittes

Well, technology wise, there's a big diffrence from a satellite launched in 2000 and one launched in 2007. It seems logical this new one is one of advertised 5 GEO ones from beidou 2 network. It's also possible it is compatible with beidou 1 ones, to serve when needed until the new 5 become operational. I would guess 2008 is pretty safe for 5 GEOs, (because of whole national pride for olympics thing) but 30 non GEO ones could take another decade after that.

 

[maozedong]

Re: chinese satelittes

[br]

[br]

International pioneer 导报 reporter the blue wave sends from Beijing on February 3 the zero hour 28 minute, China uses "the Long March third armor" in the Xichang satellite launch center the launch vehicle, succeeds sends in the dubhe navigation experiment satellite the outer space. After approximately 24 minutes, star arrow separation. The Xi'an satellite observation and control center transmits the data indicated that, the satellite accurately enters prearranges the track. The satellite navigation enters strives for hegemony the pattern Country's the and so on US, Russia, England, France mainstream media and the Hong Kong and Taiwan media had reported in the first time this China succeeds carries on the satellite launch the news. The world consensus generally believed that, this symbolized China's dubhe satellite navigational system greatly advanced a step to front, forms America, Russia, Europe, center "four strongly strives for hegemony" on the satellite navigational system the pattern. It is reported, this China launches is the 4th dubhe navigation experiment satellite. The first 3 dubhes navigation satellite separately to October 31, 2000, on December 21 and on May 25, 2003 launches lifts off. The dubhe navigation experiment system movement until now works stably, the condition is good, already in the mapping, the telecommunication, the water conservation, the transportation, the exploration and the national security and so on many domains gradually plays the vital role. According to the department concerned people in charge introduced that, China is implementing the construction dubhe satellite navigational system, plans about 2008 to satisfy Chinese and the peripheral locality user to the satellite navigational system demand, and gradually expands for the whole world satellite navigational system. This system mainly will use in the national economic construction, for profession and so on China's transportation, meteorology will provide the highly effective navigation localization service. American GPS long-term monopoly The American Department of Defense started the GPS system from 1973 which implemented, was in the world the first whole world satellite navigational system, has monopolized the whole world in quite long period of time military and the civil satellite navigation market. GPS originally is specially uses in for the intercontinental missile navigation secret military system, obtained the actual combat application for the first time in 1991 Gulf War. Afterwards, in the Kosovo war, the Afghan war and the Iraqi war gives full play. From the Clinton time, this system starts to apply in the civil aspect. Presently moves the GPS system is composed by 24 work satellites and 4 spare satellites. US has obtained the huge economic using GPS, for many years has been selling the signal receiving apparatus aspect to earn the huge profit. Take 1986 as the example, at that time general precision GPS position finder price 50,000 US dollars, the high accuracy amounted to 100,000 US dollars. Now the price although has the drop, but also may calculate for 20 year GPS "quite abundantly the harvest". Take GPS as representative's satellite navigation localization application industry, has become one of eight big wireless industrial. The investigation appraisal which according to the American country public management research institute carries on indicated that, the GPS global sales volume by every year 38% speed growth, in 2005 the global GPS market has amounted to 31 billion US dollars. Since long ago, US provides to our country military is the pintpointing signal, provided to other users is added the disturbance low accuracy signal --in other words, on the Earth any goal accurate position, only had the American to grasp, other countries only knew "probably". When Gulf War, US also once set at the European Union various countries benefit not to attend to, a closure to European GPS service. "Four is strong" respectively has the fit and unfit quality In order to break American the monopoly, Russia spent more than 3 billion US dollars to build up own whole world satellite navigational system GLONASS (standard Luo river natrium Si). In 2002, European Union started "Galileo to plan", will put into service in 2008. In 2003, China and European Union have signed the agreement of partnership which concerned Galileo plans, at present the bilateral cooperation project had 14. In addition, the Chinese independent research and development dubhe satellite navigational system already made the significant progress. Looked from the present competition pattern that, GPS also is occupying the dominant position without doubt, but its superiority gradually is being substituted for by other 3 big systems. Looked from the technology and the application prospect that, four big systems respectively have the fit and unfit quality, if GPS wins in maturely, Galileo wins fine in, then the standard Luo river natrium Si's greatest value lies in the antijamming ability to be strong, but China's dubhe satellite navigational system superiority lies in the interaction and openness. Compares with GPS, the Galileo system has the superiority in many aspects, the example if the satellite quantity reaches 30, its satellite orbit position is higher than GPS. Galileo may provide 3 kind of types for the ground user the signals to supply the choice, including the free signal, the encryption also must pay fee the signal, the encryption which can use also may conform to the higher request signal. In addition, the Galileo satellite positioning system signal most high accuracy GPS is higher than 10 times, the definite object erroneous scope in 1 meter. Just like the concerned expert said that, "Present GPS only can find the street, but Galileo actually can find the garage the gate." But Russia's standard Luo river natrium Si are composed by 24 satellites, also is responsible by the military to develop and the control military and civilian dual purpose navigation localization satellite system. Although its pointing accuracy GPS, Galileo is slightly lower than, but its antijamming ability actually is strongest. China independently develops the production the dubhe satellite navigational system not only to have in any time, any place for the user determined its is at geography latitude and longitude and altitude above sea level ability, moreover has the innovation in the localization performance. The dubhe system with other system biggest differences, lies in it not only to be able to cause the user to know own in the position, but also may tell the others the position, specially is suitable to needs the navigation and the migration data communication place. In addition, China also devotes to enhances the dubhe satellite navigational system and other whole world satellite navigational systems compatibility, the promotion satellite positioning, the navigation, the time service function application.

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[Jiang]

Re: chinese satelittes

this is probably one of the more important things to come out of Zhuhai, the announcement of the Compass (Beidou) navigation system.

I got some pictures.
[qimg]http://img365.imageshack.us/img365/4486/beidouzhuhai06cv0.jpg[/qimg]
[qimg]http://img362.imageshack.us/img362/4295/beidouzhuhai062yd7.jpg[/qimg]

news on this

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I guess important stuff
5 GEO satellites
30 MEO satellites (compared to 30 MEO satellites for Galileo)
for civilians, 10 m accuracy, 0.2 m/s accuracy (this is better than Glonass)
and for authorised users, higher accuracy.

Well, satellites must be made by China herself. What if a joint project goes wrong and Crap happens. The RD-93 is a great example and lesson(even though WS-13 is coming up), but we should learnd that joint project is not safe. The World's only super power drive Japan and Germany cars, wear Chinese made clothes, and used Chinese goods. But evey peice of military stuffs is Made In the United States.

Therefore I think the Beido system should be used not the EU's Galiliao system.