China's Space Program News Thread

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Skywatcher

Captain
I wonder if the Tengyun has a similar size to the Shenyang Aircraft Design Institute (601 Institute) H-2 TSTO Concept from 1987.

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Though it does seem overly ambitious to begun the Tengyun by building a 80 meter long "Sino SR-72"* with a 132 ton second stage rocket plane.

*Richard Fisher states that the 80 meter long first stage would weigh 198 tons, but that's probably a typo.

NVM, the Skylon weighs about 325 tons.
 

Temstar

Brigadier
Registered Member
I remember one of the reason for why Skylon needs to be SSTO is because its giant size actually helps with re-entry. Since most of it is fuel (and liquid hydrogen at that, the least dense of all liquid fuels), by the time it re-enters it's conceptual a big plane shaped metal balloon. The low sectional density and relatively high lift means it's a lot less stressful in terms of thermals than space shuttle which is dense like a brick.

Is China particularly advanced in terms of heat resistant material tech? One would imagine this would also be factor when developing hyper sonic glide vehicles such as the DF-ZF on DF-17, which leads me to think perhaps China had one or more breakthroughs in this area.
 

gelgoog

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
Meh. Reminds me of ultra-expensive projects of the 1970-80s which went nowhere. The Soviets had Spiral:
SPIRAL project, SPIRAL launcher, Spiral shuttle, supersonic launcher, orbital plane, orbital fighter plane, EPOC, EPOS, 105.11, 105.12, 105.13, soviet project, USSR, analogue plane


The Germans had SAENGER-II:
Saenger 2 Spaceplane


These kinds of projects are expensive like heck. You need to develop two sets of hard to design aircraft and you need two or more different sets of engines. Then you get almost no payload to space.
 

gelgoog

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
Not to mention that the high supersonic/hypersonic engines for the H-2, Spiral and Saenger 2 weren't even remotely possible in the 1970s-1980s.

No one has developed those kinds of engines today either. Not for lack of trying. While today we have a little more advanced materials and a lot more advanced computer models for high-temperature gas dynamics regimes I don't see this happening any time soon.
People have been mucking around with ramjets, scramjets, and liquid air cycle rocket engines for decades. At least since the 1950s.
It is little surprise most of the actual useful implementations have been in missiles. Unlike an aircraft it doesn't need to last long in use.
 

ougoah

Brigadier
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Glorified vanity projects with little current usefulness. Maybe quick deployment for emergency space payloads? Even then, fast launch rockets can probably do it for cheaper. You gotta wonder about the serviceability rates of these vehicles, how many space planes and delivery planes can be produced and for how much. Maybe they're good substitutions to supplement conventional launches when re-usable tech and economics haven't quite been worked out. I'm sure reusable is easier to achieve than space plane and delivery vehicle. Must have alternative uses if genuinely pursued. Otherwise could be risking an expensive vanity project forever limited by purpose.
 

gelgoog

Lieutenant General
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Glorified vanity projects with little current usefulness. Maybe quick deployment for emergency space payloads? Even then, fast launch rockets can probably do it for cheaper. You gotta wonder about the serviceability rates of these vehicles, how many space planes and delivery planes can be produced and for how much. Maybe they're good substitutions to supplement conventional launches when re-usable tech and economics haven't quite been worked out. I'm sure reusable is easier to achieve than space plane and delivery vehicle. Must have alternative uses if genuinely pursued. Otherwise could be risking an expensive vanity project forever limited by purpose.

The Concorde was a lot more conventional and it was a flop. It got banned from flying overland routes because of noise.
The first stages of these kinds of projects are a lot harder to do than something like the Concorde.
Most of them are supposed to be able to do flight outside the atmosphere. Or in very thin atmosphere with next to no oxygen.
I have seen a lot of people who actually know the physics say you lose more energy just capturing the oxygen to get to orbital speed than you win vs carrying liquid oxygen from the ground up. Plus the aircraft needs to withstand all that friction while scooping up the oxygen. Then there are gravity losses just because you are doing horizontal flight.

The technology can make sense in something like an interceptor or a bomber. In that case it's a military application so things like sonic booms don't matter. Plus if you want to do long distance cruise then a winged vehicle makes sense. But as an orbital launch vehicle it is pretty skittish. Thus we have the Tu-160 still in service today while the only place you can find the Concorde is in a museum.
 

Deino

Lieutenant General
Staff member
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According to a CCTV report and
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from other media outlets, CASIC revealed at the China International Commercial Space Summit that by 2025, China will build a re-usable space plane, code named Tengyun. The spaceplane is currently under construction.

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How reliable is especially the last part stating "the space-plane is already under construction"??
 

by78

General
How reliable is especially the last part stating "the space-plane is already under construction"??

Hmmm, now you mention it, I might have misunderstood the article. The Chinese words "正在打造的" literally means "currently under construction" or "currently being built". Might it have meant something along the lines of the overall project – not the spaceplane itself – is currently in full swing? I can't say for sure.

Other sources mention that a demonstration/experimental flight has been successful, marking a major milestone breakthrough, while others mention that only a full-scale prototype was expected by 2025, and that commercial service will not begin until 2030.

Take what you will, but I suspect we will see something significant and concrete five years from now.
 
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