China's Social Credit System: An Orwellian Nightmare? (Discussion/comments)

solarz

solarz

Brigadier
latenlazy said:
You get into some pretty dicey problems when the state takes an active, explicit, and highly visible position of dictating and determining socio-economic outcomes though.
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You're gonna have to clarify what you mean by "active, explicit, and highly visible position of dictating and determining socio-economic outcomes", because from where I stand, every nation does that.
 
L

latenlazy

Brigadier
solarz said:
You're gonna have to clarify what you mean by "active, explicit, and highly visible position of dictating and determining socio-economic outcomes", because from where I stand, every nation does that.
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I’m not singling out China on the principle of this point, but states that are more flagrant about these tendencies tend to face greater opposition pressure from their society than states that are less. Liberal democracies may have these features too, but the option of open political contest usually provides a release valve (or at least the illusion of one) and can exert some moderating influence into the more explicit and direct forms of this sort of state involvement in the trajectory of private life (or at least it’s supposed to, anyways). These are ultimately questions about what a society wants, and who in a society gets to have a say in what that society wants.
 
solarz

solarz

Brigadier
latenlazy said:
I’m not singling out China on the principle of this point, but states that are more flagrant about these tendencies tend to face greater opposition pressure from their society than states that are less. Liberal democracies may have these features too, but the option of open political contest usually provides a release valve (or at least the illusion of one) and can exert some moderating influence into the more explicit and direct forms of this sort of state involvement in the trajectory of private life (or at least it’s supposed to, anyways). These are ultimately questions about what a society wants, and who in a society gets to have a say in what that society wants.
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A reward system is only useful if people opt in. If the system is designed in a way that runs counter to what the people wants, it will simply fail due to lack of participation.
 
L

latenlazy

Brigadier
solarz said:
A reward system is only useful if people opt in. If the system is designed in a way that runs counter to what the people wants, it will simply fail due to lack of participation.
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Except when the state imposes it, which is why people are accusing the so far imaginary social credit system of being Orwellian (I’m not necessarily agreeing with that point, just pointing out where that logic comes from. If it’s not obvious yet my thoughts about this topic aren’t so simplistic or straightforward...).
 
solarz

solarz

Brigadier
latenlazy said:
Except when the state imposes it, which is why people are accusing the so far imaginary social credit system of being Orwellian (I’m not necessarily agreeing with that point, just pointing out where that logic comes from. If it’s not obvious yet my thoughts about this topic aren’t so simplistic or straightforward...).
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No, even the state is not capable of imposing such a reward system.

Imagine you're a consumer, and you need to know if a merchant is trustworthy. Are you going to trust a credit system where you can gain points by, for example, praising the government?

Likewise, if you're a bank, are you going to trust the "credit score" of a loan applicant if you know anyone can get a high score by doing things that are entirely irrelevant to trustworthiness? Even if the state owns the bank and forces it to use that credit score, how long until the banks rack up a ton of bad debts and throw the economy into chaos?

The purpose of the Chinese social credit system is to create a harmonious society. You can only create harmony by promoting values that lead to cooperation. You cannot, for example, reward bigotry and expect to have a stable society.
 
L

lucretius

Junior Member
Registered Member
What checks and balances does China have in place to ensure that the government does not abuse this system of power?
 
Jura The idiot

Jura The idiot

General
solarz said:
How would it be abused, exactly?
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as in
#1
Massive potential for abuse
I don't know what the "checks & balances" are, if any, but it doesn't require much mental gymnastics to realize how quickly this system can snowball into a dystopian mechanism for state-sponsored censorship and personal micromanagement. Those in control of the social credit system would have unfettered access to every detail of a citizen's daily life and wield the ability to coerce that individual to heed the CCP's "rules". Unlike privatized social credit systems, individuals would have no chance of escaping from this form of surveillance or to prevent on aspect of their lives from interfering with the prospects of another. Unless a system is put in place that limits the government's insight into the personal lives of their citizens and simultaneously subjects the CCP to its own "credit system" (hint: never going to happen), this is an apparatus that is rife with potential for misuse and systematic abuse. People in China are already having their "points" docked for speaking out against the CCP and its policies and for actions that have no negative impact on the wider community. We can only expect this to grow in complexity, rigidity, and increasingly totalitarian as the CCP exploits new ways to milk the system for its power & omniscience.
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?
 
solarz

solarz

Brigadier
Jura said:
as in
#1
Massive potential for abuse
I don't know what the "checks & balances" are, if any, but it doesn't require much mental gymnastics to realize how quickly this system can snowball into a dystopian mechanism for state-sponsored censorship and personal micromanagement. Those in control of the social credit system would have unfettered access to every detail of a citizen's daily life and wield the ability to coerce that individual to heed the CCP's "rules". Unlike privatized social credit systems, individuals would have no chance of escaping from this form of surveillance or to prevent on aspect of their lives from interfering with the prospects of another. Unless a system is put in place that limits the government's insight into the personal lives of their citizens and simultaneously subjects the CCP to its own "credit system" (hint: never going to happen), this is an apparatus that is rife with potential for misuse and systematic abuse. People in China are already having their "points" docked for speaking out against the CCP and its policies and for actions that have no negative impact on the wider community. We can only expect this to grow in complexity, rigidity, and increasingly totalitarian as the CCP exploits new ways to milk the system for its power & omniscience.
?
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The trial run in Suining where people's political positions were included was declared a failure, so we can be pretty certain that a national social credit system will not be containing this component.

If anyone believes that what they do on the internet is "private", they're just deluding themselves. Anyone with any knowledge of how the internet works should realize that there is no such thing. Anything you upload to the internet, which includes text as well as images and videos, will likely be persisted forever.

A social credit system is not going to change this.
 
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