China's SCS Strategy Thread

P

PanAsian

Major
Simple informative explanation of the military implications of what the USN and the PLAN are doing in instances like this USNS Bowditch incident with a glimpse of other issues surrounding the topic.

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Q&A: China just seized a research robot from a U.S. Navy ship. What was it doing?
By David Malakoff
Dec. 16, 2016 , 1:45 PM

For ocean scientists who have worked with the U.S. military, today’s news that Chinese forces seized an oceanographic glider launched by an unarmed U.S. Navy research ship working in the South China Sea has a familiar ring. It’s not the first time that Chinese ships have confronted the USNS Bowditch or one of its five sister oceanographic ships, a little-known U.S. Navy fleet operated mostly by civilians that conducts mapping and ocean data collection cruises around the world. In 2001 and 2002, for instance, Chinese Navy frigates dogged the Bowditch as it worked in the Yellow Sea, leading to an exchange of diplomatic complaints.

In general, the Chinese object to the U.S. Navy conducting research activities within China’s exclusive economic zone (EEZ), which stretches some 320 kilometers off its coastline. But U.S. officials have long held that the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea specifically allows military ships to conduct research cruises within a nation’s EEZ (although civilian research cruises need to get permission from the host country).

To learn more about the work of the Bowditch and its sister ships, ScienceInsider chatted with now-retired Rear Admiral David Titley, who oversaw the U.S. Navy’s research fleet from 2007 to 2009 as commander of the Naval Meteorology and Oceanography Command. Titley is now director of the Center for Solutions to Weather and Climate Risk at Pennsylvania State University in State College. The interview has been edited for clarity and brevity.

Q: What do ships like the Bowditch do?

A: Well, these oceanographic survey ships are very rarely in the news, but they play a big part in what the Navy is doing, in a data-driven scientific way, to learn about our oceans. They do just what the name implies. The reason the Navy is interested in surveying the ocean worldwide is because it operates worldwide. So while the Navy has to play the away game, it needs and wants the home field advantage—it wants to know the terrain. And if you want to understand something you have to first measure it, and that’s what these ships are designed to do. They collect information about how deep the ocean is, the type of bottom, the currents, the temperature and salinity structure, and where the eddies are. All of that is essential to understanding the terrain and forecasting how it might change. They’ve been doing these missions in international waters for many, many decades.

Q: Are these regular Navy vessels?

A: These are Military Sealift Command vessels. In the Navy, we have what we call the gray hulls—your destroyers, aircraft carriers, and submarines—that have crews that are all active-duty military. Then there is the sealift command—the white hulls—that have civilian masters and mates, and the crews are often contractors. They also have a technical surveying crew that is usually mostly civilian oceanographers, hydrographers, and other technical personnel.

Q: What happens to the data these ships collect?

A: When the U.S. Navy works in another nation’s EEZ, you have to be careful about how you handle data, and what you do and do not release. Under the Law of the Sea, the position taken by the U.S. and many other nations is that the military can collect data within a country’s EEZ without the permission of that country, because it is a military survey. We can ask for permission, and we do at times, but we don’t have to. But those data then cannot be released to the general public, because that would make it a more civilian-type science expedition. And you don’t want another country to say: See, it’s not a military mission.

Q: China takes a different position on military research activities in the EEZ …

A: Yes, China does not like it. So, historically, what we have had occasionally is that when the Bowditch or [a similar ship] has been working in China’s EEZ, they have harassed our oceanographic survey ships. Now, I don’t know where the Bowditch exactly was working—the South China Sea is a huge area—or what its mission was. Clearly something has happened. But one of the first things you learn in the Navy is that the very first report is probably wrong. So I’m sure we’ll learn more.

Updated, 12/16/2016, 5:35p.m.: This story has been updated to remove a reference to the comparative sizes of the South China Sea and the contiguous United States.


Posted in: Asia/Pacific,
Oceanography,
Policy


DOI: 10.1126/science.aal0524
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P

PanAsian

Major
USNI info on the USNS Bowditch glider:
lbs_glider.png
 
Jura The idiot

Jura The idiot

General
Today at 8:13 AM
Jura said:
Yesterday at 11:32 AM

now I read China to return seized U.S. drone, says Washington 'hyping up' incident

source is Reuters
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related: Xinhua 2016-12-18 02:25:40
China to hand over underwater drone to U.S. in appropriate manner
Chinese Defense Ministry spokesperson Yang Yujun said late Saturday that China has decided to hand over the U.S. underwater drone it captured in its waters to the
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in an appropriate manner.

According Yang's statement on the website of the defense ministry, on the afternoon of December 15, a Chinese naval lifeboat located an unidentified device in the waters of the
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. In order to prevent the device from causing harm to the safety of navigation and personnel of passing vessels, the Chinese naval lifeboat verified and examined the device in a professional and responsible manner.

Upon examination, Yang said, the device was identified as an underwater drone of the United States. The Chinese side has decided to hand over it to the U.S. in an appropriate manner. Both sides have been maintaining communication on the issue, Yang noted. The U.S. side's unilateral move to dramatize the issue in the process is inappropriate, and not conductive to its settlement. "We regret that," Yang added.

It is worth emphasizing that for a long time, the U.S. military has frequently dispatched vessels and aircraft to carry out close-in reconnaissance and military surveys within Chinese waters, Yang said. "China resolutely opposes these activities, and demands that the U.S. side should stop such activities. China will continue to be vigilant against the relevant activities on the U.S. side, and will take necessary measures in response," said the spokesperson.
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source:
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Jura The idiot

Jura The idiot

General
Yesterday at 7:28 PM
Jura said:
Today at 8:13 AM

related: Xinhua 2016-12-18 02:25:40
China to hand over underwater drone to U.S. in appropriate manner

source:
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now USNI News ("... The gliders are labeled clearly U.S. Navy property and advise those who come across it to keep it in the water. ...")
China Promises to Return Snatched Unmanned Navy Glider
Chinese officials have pledged to return the unmanned underwater vehicle taken by members of the People’s Liberation Army Navy on Thursday, according to a Pentagon spokesman.

Without providing details of when the exchange could occur, officials said they had arranged for the return of the unmanned buoyancy gilder the Navy uses for oceanographic surveys.

“We have registered our objection to China’s unlawful seizure of a U.S. unmanned underwater vehicle operating in international waters in the South China Sea,” Pentagon spokesman Peter Cook said in a statement on Saturday.
“Through direct engagement with Chinese authorities, we have secured an understanding that the Chinese will return the UUV to the United States.”

On Saturday, the Chinese Ministry of Defense issued a statement confirming Beijing intended to give the glider back but took shots at the U.S. for playing up the issue in the press.

“The Chinese side has decided to hand over it to the U.S. in an appropriate manner. Both sides have been maintaining communication on the issue, read the statement.
“The U.S. side’s unilateral move to dramatize the issue in the process is inappropriate, and not conductive to its settlement.”

According to the ministry’s account, the crew of the People’s Republic China ship Dalang III-class (ASR-510) had taken, “in order to prevent the device from causing harm to the safety of navigation and personnel of passing vessels,” read the statement.
“The Chinese naval lifeboat verified and examined the device in a professional and responsible manner.”

However, the Chinese narrative is at odds with the chain of events told to USNI News from two U.S. defense officials and the Pentagon’s official statement.

The glider, one of more than a hundred operated by the Naval Metrological and Oceanographic Command, was one of two operating from USNS Bowditch (T-AGS-62) – about 50 miles northeast of Subic Bay in the Philippines.

Bowditch was preparing to pick up both of the gilders when the Dalang III that had been tailing the American ship launched a small boat and grabbed one of the gliders and took it back to the ship. The gliders are labeled clearly U.S. Navy property and advise those who come across it to keep it in the water.

One naval analyst told USNI News that the move from Beijing could be a signal to the incoming Trump administration.

“China could very well be trying to lay the groundwork with the new Trump administration, to make the U.S. look weak in the region, and demonstrate it’s own strength to the world — all while attempting to gain valuable intelligence through seizure of a U.S. UUV,” Eric Wertheim, author of U.S. Naval Institute’s Combat Fleets of the World, told USNI News on Friday.
For his part, President-elect Donald Trump weighed in on the incident late Saturday.

“We should tell China that we don’t want the drone they stole back,” he wrote on Twitter.
“Let them keep it!”
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source:
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Jura The idiot

Jura The idiot

General
Last edited:
Jura The idiot

Jura The idiot

General
Monday at 6:52 AM
Jura said:
Yesterday at 7:28 PM

now USNI News ("... The gliders are labeled clearly U.S. Navy property and advise those who come across it to keep it in the water. ...")
China Promises to Return Snatched Unmanned Navy Glider

source:
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and China Returns U.S. Navy Unmanned Glider
Chinese forces returned a U.S. Navy buoyancy glider to the service, the Pentagon announced in an early Tuesday morning statement.

The crew of U.S. guided missile destroyer USS Mustin (DDG-89) recovered the glider from the crew of the People’s Army Liberation Navy Dalang III vessel that took the unmanned glider from waters near the Philippines last week.

“Today, the People’s Liberation Army Navy vessel 510 returned a U.S. Navy Ocean Glider Unmanned Underwater Vehicle (UUV) to the United States, near the location where it had been unlawfully seized on Dec. 15.,” said Pentagon spokesman Peter Cook in the statement.
“USS Mustin received the vehicle for the U.S. in international waters approximately 50 nautical miles northwest of Subic Bay.”

The Chinese ship took the glider – one of two that was scheduled to be recovered by the U.S. Navy oceanographic survey ship USNS Bowditch (T-AGS-62) – near the same spot in international waters.

Before the crew of Bowditch could bring the glider aboard, a small boat from the Chinese ship that had been shadowing the U.S. ship was launched and took one of the two gliders.

Chinese officials claimed the glider was a hazard to navigation and they recovered the unmanned vehicle for the safety of the water. The U.S. took issue with Beijing’s interpretation of events.

“This incident was inconsistent with both international law and standards of professionalism for conduct between navies at sea,” cook said in his statement.
“The U.S. has addressed those facts with the Chinese through the appropriate diplomatic and military channels, and have called on Chinese authorities to comply with their obligations under international law and to refrain from further efforts to impede lawful U.S. activities.”

The glider is one of more than a 100 the U.S. Navy uses to measure ocean data.

“The Navy uses the gliders to collect ocean temperature, salinity and depth information, and transmit the unclassified data to
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for assimilation into NAVOCEANO’s operational ocean models,”
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,
Oceanographer of the Navy, wrote in a Monday Navy Live blog post.
“They are used by scientists and professionals around the world working in academia, the oil and gas industry as well as the military. Gliders have been the workhorses of the operational Naval Oceanography program for nearly two decades.”

The seizure of the glider prompted an early clash between Beijing and President-elect Donald Trump ahead of Trump’s inauguration next month.

Statement by Pentagon Press Secretary Peter Cook on Return of U.S. Navy UUV

Today, the People’s Liberation Army-Navy vessel 510 returned a U.S. Navy Ocean Glider Unmanned Underwater Vehicle (UUV) to the United States, near the location where it had been unlawfully seized on Dec. 15. USS Mustin (DDG 89) received the vehicle for the U.S. in international waters approximately 50 nautical miles northwest of Subic Bay. The seized UUV is a sovereign immune vessel of the U.S. Navy which was conducting routine operations in the international waters of the South China Sea in full compliance with international law. It had just completed a pre-programmed military oceanographic survey route and was returning to the nearby USNS Bowditch (T-AGS 62). Ocean Gliders such as this are used regularly by the U.S. Navy and other militaries throughout the world.

This incident was inconsistent with both international law and standards of professionalism for conduct between navies at sea. The U.S. has addressed those facts with the Chinese through the appropriate diplomatic and military channels, and have called on Chinese authorities to comply with their obligations under international law and to refrain from further efforts to impede lawful U.S. activities. The U.S. will continue to investigate the events surrounding this incident and address any additional findings with the Chinese, as part of our ongoing diplomatic dialogues and the Military Maritime Consultative Agreement Mechanism.

The U.S. remains committed to upholding the accepted principles and norms of international law and freedom of navigation and overflight and will continue to fly, sail, and operate in the South China Sea wherever international law allows, in the same way that we operate everywhere else around the world.
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it's USNI News
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B

B.I.B.

Captain
This is a rather large publication… 88 pages long. It can be rather repetitive and at times I have wondered whether the author Babbage really knows China.

However some aspects provide food for thought with a big emphasis on intensifying the use of softpower in getting China to reverse her current policy in the SCS such as baring Chinese students from certain courses in western universitys. Exclude it from G7/ G20 stop using the yuans as a currency, etc etc



Countering China’s Adventurism in the South China Sea: Strategy Options for the Trump Administration
December 14, 2016
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Resources:
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W

weig2000

Captain
B.I.B. said:
This is a rather large publication… 88 pages long. It can be rather repetitive and at times I have wondered whether the author Babbage really knows China.

However some aspects provide food for thought with a big emphasis on intensifying the use of softpower in getting China to reverse her current policy in the SCS such as baring Chinese students from certain courses in western universitys. Exclude it from G7/ G20 stop using the yuans as a currency, etc etc



Countering China’s Adventurism in the South China Sea: Strategy Options for the Trump Administration
December 14, 2016
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Resources:
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China is not in G7, nor is she terribly interested. How do you exclude her from something she is not in?

It is as easy to exclude China from G20 as it is the US? How do you do that? Who has the right/power to do it? I guess you can start a new club and call it whatever you want, G19, G21. Didn't you already have your club in G7? And TPP, the Anyone but China (ABC) club, appears to be dying before it is even born.

Stop using yuans? People and business use yuan out of their own choices.

Baring Chinese students from certain courses? It appears that the author runs out of useful ideas...

There are any numbers of pundits, commentators, arm-chair strategists currently out there writing proposals and ideas to project their wishes onto the upcoming Trump administration. It is as if with Trump, a new dawn is with us and the US will suddenly gain some mythical power to corner its opponents or adversaries which previously it have not overpowered or subdued. A lot of people who used to be in the fringes believe themselves to be mainstream now. For example, the former Dick Cheney advisor, Stephen Yates, who is supposedly one of Trump's advisors, took a whirlwind tour to Taiwan, was treated as VIP, wined and dined with Taiwan's politicians, and suggested that Taiwan came up with their wish-list of weapons sales from the US.

I guess we shall see. Every administration starts with hope, changes, wishes and all that. It's like the New Year's resolutions.
 
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