China's SCS Strategy Thread

Brumby

Major
Yes, wonderful idea and will stop China from being defensive and reactive all the time.

Since, it is a given that US is NOT taking any side ... ...
:rolleyes: o_O :rolleyes:

Will China PROACTIVELY ask US --- can we do a joint Military FoN patrol with you on all Spratly reefs claimed and occupied by Philippines ?

US will say ... ...Over--my--Dead--body.
:D :p
For this fun and game postings that you guys are making, isn't it predicated upon China making the offer and the US will refuse? A good start will be for you guys suggesting these hypotheticals to write to President Xi and get China taking step one before concluding what US might or might not do.
 

Blackstone

Brigadier
For this fun and game postings that you guys are making, isn't it predicated upon China making the offer and the US will refuse? A good start will be for you guys suggesting these hypotheticals to write to President Xi and get China taking step one before concluding what US might or might not do.
Why do you suppose it's predicated upon China to propose anything? I ask because if China continues to grow at around 5 to 6%, then time is on its side and it will eventually become so powerful it could get its way regardless. So, it's in China's best interest to keep tensions tight, but not force the issue until the day it has overwhelming strength to get whatever outcome it desires.
 

Lethe

Captain
Why do you suppose it's predicated upon China to propose anything? I ask because if China continues to grow at around 5 to 6%, then time is on its side and it will eventually become so powerful it could get its way regardless. So, it's in China's best interest to keep tensions tight, but not force the issue until the day it has overwhelming strength to get whatever outcome it desires.

And by corollary, it is in the interest of those nations whose strength relative to China will decline over time (which is pretty much all of them, including the US) to force a confrontation while the balance of power is still relatively favourable.

You say that it is in China's interest to "keep tensions tight" -- I don't agree. China's #1 objective for at least the next decade must be to avoid conflict (see above) even if this means swallowing provocations and humiliations. This does not mean that China should abandon the pursuit of her interests in the interim, but there is a definite hierarchy of priorities. In the shorter-term China's objective should simply be to prevent adverse developments or the establishment of undesirable conditions that she would find difficult to mitigate and reverse at a later junction.

Of course this is all in the realm of strict theory -- rational actors and so on. The difficulty is that nations are run by (a great many) people and those people are imperfect, often have competing priorities and lack the ability to communicate and coordinate effectively. Most dangerously, politicians both in China and other nations can find themselves pressured by more nationalistic elements either amongst the citizenry, via lobby groups, or certain institutions themselves to act in ways that endanger the long-term national interest.
 

Blackstone

Brigadier
And by corollary, it is in the interest of those nations whose strength relative to China will decline over time (which is pretty much all of them, including the US) to force a confrontation while the balance of power is still relatively favourable.
Agreed, and that's exactly how the smaller SCS claimants see things too. It's the reason they're pushing the issue now, with or without the help of the US. Conversely, US involvement to contain China also emboldens the other claimants and lower probability for compromise.

You say that it is in China's interest to "keep tensions tight" -- I don't agree. China's #1 objective for at least the next decade must be to avoid conflict (see above) even if this means swallowing provocations and humiliations.

Even if that's the case, deep nationalism among Chinese citizenry limits government's scope to accept US provovations and humiliations. If pushed against the wall, Communist leaders might feel they have no choice but to push back, even if it means conflicts.
[/QUOTE]
 
For this fun and game postings that you guys are making, isn't it predicated upon China making the offer and the US will refuse? A good start will be for you guys suggesting these hypotheticals to write to President Xi and get China taking step one before concluding what US might or might not do.

Don't know about the others but I wasn't kidding. I think that China should offer to do a joint patrol with the US and also SE Asian navies or coast guards. It probably would not be a FONOP, could be around the Strait of Malacca in the context of anti-piracy.
 

Brumby

Major
Why do you suppose it's predicated upon China to propose anything?
The supposition was not made by me. Please refer to GP's post #1890 in which I responded. That condition precedent was GP's narrative. Please try to understand what is being said before you comment

I ask because if China continues to grow at around 5 to 6%, then time is on its side and it will eventually become so powerful it could get its way regardless. So, it's in China's best interest to keep tensions tight, but not force the issue until the day it has overwhelming strength to get whatever outcome it desires.
Please humour me why a simple narrative regarding a conditional event is connected to your political exposition.
 

Brumby

Major
Don't know about the others but I wasn't kidding. I think that China should offer to do a joint patrol with the US and also SE Asian navies or coast guards. It probably would not be a FONOP, could be around the Strait of Malacca in the context of anti-piracy.
I think that actually is a good idea in terms of joint operation particularly with the piracy issue in some parts of SCS. I think Australia conducted some joint operation with China recently.
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
Why do you suppose it's predicated upon China to propose anything? I ask because if China continues to grow at around 5 to 6%, then time is on its side and it will eventually become so powerful it could get its way regardless. So, it's in China's best interest to keep tensions tight, but not force the issue until the day it has overwhelming strength to get whatever outcome it desires.

That actually a dangerous mentality to adopt.

This isn't 10 years ago, and China has already amassed considerable military strength.

There are limits to Chinese patience and restraint, and as with any great power, China recognises that there is hardly ever a sure thing in the world, and that sometimes risks are necessary.

As such, it would be dangerous to keep pushing China for short term concessions, expecting China to back off every time because absolutely Chinese national and military power still lags behind the US.

If the US pushes too far, too hard and over-extends itself militarily and/or adopts a position that is hard for even its professional spin doctors and sympathisers in the western press to justify, China may well decide to push back and force the US into either a humiliating climb down or a costly military defeat.

The SCS is actually almost the ideal place from the Chinese prospective to have a throw down.

It's close enough to the Chinese mainland to give China the home field advantage, yet far enough that direct strikes on mainland targets would be seen by all as a massive and disproportionate escalation.

The geography of much of the region makes it very limiting and unfavourable for ocean going, large displacement warships and subs, thus creating easy bottlenecks and perfect ambush zones.

The pro-US vassal states in the region are bluntly put, militarily insignificant, and the US lacks any real military base in the region.

That means that if push came to shove, the US would be forced to engage with just its navy, pretty much as far from home as its possible to get on this planet, with minimal to no useful support from the other branches of the US military, and saddled with allies who's forces represent little more than living decoys for US assets.

This, in my view is why China has taken such a robust position on this issue since the US first started to wade into it.

China raised the stakes when the US first started making noises and used that as cover and pretext to build up its holdings in the SCS into potentially game changing island bases capable of hosting huge numbers of PLA forces, and forming a mutually supporting defensive and offensive lynchpin that even the USN would find extremely hard and costly to try and take.

I think the Chinese leadership was half expecting the US to back off, seeing how much worse those island bases have made their military options and chances in the region.

However, the US seems to have doubled down instead on a lousy hand.

The good news is that I don't think China wants war, because if it did, it would be exceptionally easy to bait the US into one.

However, the US needs to wake up and take stock of just how bad a position they have sleepwalked into and stop pushing and escalating the situation in the SCS real quickly.

This joint patrol with the Phillippines is a really bad idea. What are they going to do if the Chinese send coast guard ships to obstruct only the Philippines part of the patrol?

China might be willing to limit themselves to only verbal protests about US warships sailing in its waters, but anyone with half a brain can see that the only reason the Philippines would get involved in the so called 'FON' patrols is to undermine Chinese territorial claims and control. So it is far less likely to tolerate that.
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
Don't know about the others but I wasn't kidding. I think that China should offer to do a joint patrol with the US and also SE Asian navies or coast guards. It probably would not be a FONOP, could be around the Strait of Malacca in the context of anti-piracy.

Awful idea as far as Chinese interests are concerned.

Even mounting counter FON patrols would undermine China's opposition to these patrols. To do a joint one is pretty much conceding everything.
 
Awful idea as far as Chinese interests are concerned.

Even mounting counter FON patrols would undermine China's opposition to these patrols. To do a joint one is pretty much conceding everything.

I specifically stated that it would not be a FON patrol but rather an anti-piracy one. The FON and territorial disputes won't go away but a joint anti-piracy patrol in SE Asia can be a confidence building measure to balance the contentious issues, as small a baby step as it would be. It would also be a symbol of power and responsibility sharing, especially if SE Asian navies are included. This does not serve anyone's maximal selfish interests but it does serve the interest of co-operation and building trust. Something like this can make the difference between whether the FON and territorial disputes spiral out of control less easily. Might be too little too late even if done at this point though.
 
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