You can disagree all you want and attempt to claim your so-called "Chinese" lens here, but that is ONLY your assertion.That is ONLY your assertion, in your western lens. It is why the two terms got equated by westerner. That is EXACTLY I disagree with you.
Again, I already told you that I have not been attempting to judge whether migration and assimilation is “right” or “wrong”. This is however NOT the same thing as talking about the past and present DIFFERENCES between ethnic groups, because they DO in fact exist whether or not you personally want to talk about them. What a complete non sequitur!So apparently, we reached different conclusion from the same fact? Because the foundation of thinking is different?
The two parts above together actually tells that the 91% is a mix that settled and came around to be seen as one only recently. It is an ongoing progress and should not and will not stop and freeze to keep the other 9% separate forever (in the Chinese mind).
All I want to tell you (which is our difference, am I wrong about you?) is that the mix is an ongoing process since the beginning of China and it is and should continue. It is meaningless to emphasize the past and present differences (between ethnic groups) in Chinese context. Not only it is meaningless but it is against the Chinese idea.
Recognizing the legitimacy of the Yuan dynasty as a Chinese dynasty is NOT the same thing as recognizing the Mongols as “Chinese”. The Mongols used Chinese institutions, practices and officials to rule China; essentially every characteristic of the Yuan dynasty was Chinese, so why wouldn’t it be a Chinese dynasty? Nonetheless, the rallying cry of the Ming rebels was in fact to expel the Mongol foreigners, which clearly tells me they did NOT view the Mongols as Chinese, contrary to your ultra-romanticized and heavily-redacted historical claims.The rallying cry could be true (I have heard of it). But you ignored the fact that the Ming put Yuan in the official history as legitimate dynasty that Ming itself inherited the mandate of heaven. You know who wrote and compiled "元史", do you?
Oh, no respect for the White Lotus, eh? How about the subsequent Taiping Rebellion? They said the exact same things. Also too “close to bandit”? Multiple Han uprisings pretty much all said the same thing: 反清复明 LOL, ok you want the ROC. How about Sun Yatsen himself? Here is what he said: “To restore our national independence, we must first restore the Chinese nation. To restore the Chinese nation, we must drive the barbarian Manchus back to the Changbai Mountains. To get rid of the barbarians, we must first overthrow the present tyrannical, dictatorial, ugly, and corrupt Qing government. Fellow countrymen, a revolution is the only means to overthrow the Qing government!” Good enough for you or are you going to spin yourself out of this one too???Regarding White Lotus, I have not much respect as they are a secret religious sect. Whatever they call or think does carry weight to me. What counts is the official position of ROC which replaced Qing, and following PRC. Both republics recognizes Qing as legitimate Chinese dynasty, that is all I care. Mind you White Lotus does not have positive position in PRC books at least, it is regarded close to bandit.
The Manchu assimilation was not exactly a “harmonious” one like you romantically try to portray it. The Manchus actually tried to explicitly (by law) prohibit Han people from migrating to Manchuria early during the Qing, but due to subsequent pressure from Russia had to send Han infantry to Manchuria to garrison strongholds there. With them followed artisans, merchants, women, children. Manchus were eventually assimilated against their wishes because of necessity due to external pressures, subsequently becoming a minority in their own land and resulting in the Manchuria that we see today.
You need to face the fact that the people who actually lived in history and who spoke words which have been passed down to us, DISAGREE with your biased historical revisionism and romanticization of Chinese history, a history which looks nothing like what you are claiming.
Nation state (noun): a sovereign state whose citizens or subjects are relatively homogeneous in factors such as language or common descent.So you are agreeing with me that China is not a nation state.
But then you continue on to say the following implying that I am defining China as a nation state which is not what I meant.
You: Everyone in China has a claim on every single square-centimeter of land because everyone shares the same blood with everyone else, shares the same ancestors.
This IS the definition of nation state; common descent (in your words “same blood”, “same ancestors”).
A nation state (the western concept created after 1700s) is NOT the SAME as shared common ancestry in the Chinese concept. Once again your interpretation of my (Chinese concept) shows that you are using the western lens to read Chinese.
No, I am not contradicting, it is you applying (once again) western concept on Chinese mind. That's how you got the argument with others in the first place.
Let me replace Nation with Family to illustrate.
My claim of common ownership of the same land does NOT try to eliminate the difference between "Nation" or "People". It is different people with shared bound, family A with family B sharing land/property because A's Son married B's daughter, still two family "Nation/Ethnity/People" whatever you like to call.
A Western "Nation" state is opposite, it is family A and B does not share land/property even there is intermarriage. the two family remains separated.
Nice try but you are making some seriously unwarranted assumptions here. First, what if the B’s daughter doesn’t even want to share your so-called “common” property with A’s family? What if B’s daughter married A’s son at gunpoint against her wishes? What if B’s daughter doesn’t even want to take A’s family name?
Look, I don’t know what “western person” you talked to, but that is the most ridiculous thing I’ve heard in a while. There is such a thing as “nuclear family” (husband/wife/kids), “immediate family” (including parents/siblings) and “extended family” (including all blood relatives), but there is no general Western perception of extended or even immediate family as “not really regarded as one's family”. Sorry but that is just a massive load of BS.One last try to tell you the difference in mind set. I once had a conversation with a western person. We talked about family relationship, visiting relatives. Suddenly the person realized that there was a misunderstanding of the word "family", so he asked me "what do you mean by family?", I told him "My grandparents, nephew, nice, uncle, ante, cousin etc.". He then said "that is extended family" in west and not really regarded as one's family, family in the west is "one, his wife and children". I told him "Chinese don't make that much difference although there is closeness and remoteness". This is to show you that basic concepts from Family to People are quite different from China to the West. So don't try to judge from your own spot.
ROFLMAO “ulterior motives”??? Seriously??? Like what kind of ulterior motives? Maybe you think I’m a paid CIA plant trying to foment splittism and separatism on SDF? Wow. Hey, just because you’re paranoid doesn’t mean I’m not out to get you, amiright?Yes, exactly.
When a question is phrased in a way that implicitly emphasizes a separation of concepts that are not actually separate in reality, it shows that the person or organization asking that question has ulterior motives. They are not really interested in your answer, they just want you to accept their premise.
Last edited: