China's future geopolitical evolution!

ABC78

Junior Member
Wikistrat Chief Analyst Dr. Thomas P.M. Barnett's presents four-part video series featuring introduction to the simulation: "When China Hits The Great Wall".

In this installment Dr. Barnett breaks down the scenario dynamics of the simulation.

[video=youtube;9wd-HoqNArI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9wd-HoqNArI&list=FLm-3OAJldt4_f-JJA31cQWQ&index=24&feature=plpp_video[/video]

[video=youtube;j-XYiVW8FiY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-XYiVW8FiY&feature=relmfu[/video]
 

ABC78

Junior Member
The remaining 2 videos.

[video=youtube;sK_6WNTen1U]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&v=sK_6WNTen1U&NR=1[/video]

[video=youtube;2vUVNk-F9wA]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=2vUVNk-F9wA[/video]
 

Subedei

Banned Idiot
I think you are looking at the issue from the wrong perspective. This is not about China making special strategic alliances with specific individual nations, but acting as a pole around which other nations can amalgamate and form new economic and security structures.

Thanks for your contribution to this thread.

Yours is a well conceived, and excellent, comment and great food for thought!

I agree with your analysis about China becoming "the central kingdom", again, around which others could constellate, and I recognize the potential dynamism of such an arrangement. The SCO does, indeed, offer many opportunities for positive evolution. Nevertheless, is it not possible that either within, or without, the SCO structure China might also develop a particularly dynamic dyad with a nation such as Russia or Iran, among others? I'm not suggesting a partnership that is exclusive of, or antipathetic to, other relationships, simply one that optimally fulfills the criteria of a symbiotic relationship.
 
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Subedei

Banned Idiot
jackliu, i finally got around to your comment! sorry it's so late!

As other have suggested, Pakistan will be the first obvious allies, but I think it will also be one of the shortest live alliance they have. Because China-Pakistan relationship is tonally based on their antagonism towards India. They have very very little shared common cultural values.

I agree that the Sino/Pakistani alliance is one that serves short-term Chinese interests and is far more beneficial to Pakistan than it is to China.

In the long term I believe Asia will go back to the sino-centric order where China, Korea, Japan and Vietnam will be in the same sphere. Obviously this is like 30-50 years in the future. As much as those nations all hate each other, but they have very similar cultural foundation, they have all be heavily sinocized for centuries, they share similar beliefs in Confucianism, Buddhism, Taoism and the order of the world.

I find it interesting that you consider ethnic culture such a significant geopolitical influence. As I'm a cultural anthropologist by discipline, I find that intriguing. But I'm not quite convinced! As I've suggested, I think China will have to demonstrate leadership in moderation, compromise, and peace-building in the region in order to gain the confidence of its historical regional adversaries.

However I think sooner or later Russia and China will became rivals.

Interesting! They have been rivals in the far, and recent, past.

I actually consider Russia to be one of the nations with the most potential to become an equal partner. Just developing stronger cooperation in the sectors of energy exploration and transport (technologies, techniques, and applications), as well as cooperation in the development of coordinated regional transport infrastructure, could be a significant geopolitical event, offering significant advantages to both nations and the region as a whole. Not to mention that, as few nations export strategic bombers, therefore creating no competition for exports, and that both China and Russia will need to develop a new platform, the potential for future, mutually beneficial cooperation in the sector of defense technology is not out of the question.


As for Middle East, only bad thing will happen. I think their mindset is still stuck in Europe's 14 century. Still really need to get over their obsession with Allah to have any chance to modernize and compete with rest of the world.

I was almost afraid to quote that, but I did for one reason. Iran is a surprisingly modern Islamic nation. Although the face of the regime would not suggest so, Iran, formerly Persia, is a scientifically, philosophically, academically, technologically, and politically, advanced and sophisticated nation with a long and rich history and culture. Had it not been for the imperialistic interventions of the Russo/Anglo/American sphere, Iran might be a very different nation today, and still be Islamic.

Iran is another nation whose resources and capabilities would offer significant advantages in a relationship with China. China is already Iran's largest trading partner.
 
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plawolf

Lieutenant General
I have said for some time that a potential wild card alliance could be between China and a unified Korea.

North Korea has been, and always will be a problem for everyone in the region for obvious reasons. Increasingly, China is seeing NK as a liability instead of an asset, and I think that increasingly, the elite 38th Army of the PLA is stationed in Northern China more as a counter against NK rather than in support of them.

South Korea longs for unification, but will never be able to achieve that goal if it only relies on US aim, because as soon as the US gets involved, China will see little choice but to support NK to prevent American military bases within spitting range of the Chinese boarder, and we will have a rerun of the Korean war.

The only way the two Koreas will ever be reunified is if South Korea had China's blessing and support.

With SK as hostile (if not more so) towards Japan as they are towards China, America has a very delicate and difficult balancing act keeping both those allies on the same side, and a mishandled dispute could easily alienate one or the other, and if push really came to shove and America had to pick favorites, they would pick Japan over SK and everyone knows that, including the S. Koreans.

For China, as I have already pointed out, NK is already becoming an embarrassment and headache, and I think no-one in Beijing would miss the Kims if they were gone. The chance to fight a just war against a hopelessly outmatched foe could also be very appealing to the PLA top brass. In addition, opening up a second front would be the best possible counter to Beijing's chief concern in the event of the collapse of the NK regime - the flood of hundreds of thousands of refugees across the boarder into China and destabilizing the region.

A co-ordinated preemptive strike by the air forces and special forces of SK and China would also yield the biggest possible chance of neutralizing NK's nuclear arsenal before they can be uses, especially if Chinese and SK intelligence agencies pooled their resources beforehand to locate the warheads. That would also address another major concern of China's that a war between the Koreas could turn nuclear and resulting fallout could contaminate vast sways of China.

Basically, the only way a new war between the Koreas could possibly have a happy ending that doesn't end with mushroom clouds is if SK and China joined forces. Both sides would know this, and I think both sides would have detailed contingency plans in place that may look surprisingly similar.

I can quite easily see a grand bargain being struck by China and SK, with China pledging it's support and granting aid to help with the reconstruction afterwards in exchange for SK agreeing to kick out all US military personnel from the Korean peninsula, and a suitably large chunk of the reconstruction contracts to Chinese firms.

China would not even need to push SK for a formal alliance, because the common bound forged in battle, as well as enhanced economic cooperation from the reconstruction would help to bring the two countries and peoples together, and once that bound as been made, I think it will be very apparent just how well the two countries and economies suits each other. American paranoia and hysteria would also push those two further apart on the other hand, and it would not be hard to seeing a Unified Korea and China alliance uniting against Japan, with America stuck with a very hard decision.
 

kei3000

New Member
.... and I think no-one in Beijing would miss the Kims if they were gone....

LOL, however, one question need to think out is who, US--PRC--or UN, are willing to intervene and lose lifes in this small peninsula.

IMHO, chinese had contribute so many lifes in korea war last century.
Well, everybody knows peace or harmony is a important piece of matter,
however, how many people are willing to risk their own life for it?
Are there so many inborn Che Guevaras today?
It`s a question.

To say the least, if things really come and become worse in future,
who are supposed to take the chagre for it and who can?
We all saw the tragedies occuring on the Arab and Balkan peninsula.
It is not easy to clean the blot.

On the other hand, if we people from other country interfere NK with force,
we may have a possibility to push Kim to become Bin Laden Second.
Thus, we need a long time to play hide-and-seek game and have to keep our nervus tight for terrorist attacking at same time.


So here is my hope, no war on this place, may be the best opition.
Besides, a SK friend of mine had told me they cannot enjoy fighting this war no matter for what a right reason,
just because both sides are korean, same people from all angles.
 

jobjed

Captain
¦^��: Re: China's future geopolitical evolution!

LOL, however, one question need to think out is who, US--PRC--or UN, are willing to intervene and lose lifes in this small peninsula.

IMHO, chinese had contribute so many lifes in korea war last century.
Well, everybody knows peace or harmony is a important piece of matter,
however, how many people are willing to risk their own life for it?
Are there so many inborn Che Guevaras today?
It`s a question.

To say the least, if things really come and become worse in future,
who are supposed to take the chagre for it and who can?
We all saw the tragedies occuring on the Arab and Balkan peninsula.
It is not easy to clean the blot.

On the other hand, if we people from other country interfere NK with force,
we may have a possibility to push Kim to become Bin Laden Second.
Thus, we need a long time to play hide-and-seek game and have to keep our nervus tight for terrorist attacking at same time.


So here is my hope, no war on this place, may be the best opition.
Besides, a SK friend of mine had told me they cannot enjoy fighting this war no matter for what a right reason,
just because both sides are korean, same people from all angles.

Sigh... makes me sad to think that's what Koreans think of each other. They view each other as brothers and compatriots of the same nation. If only Taiwan and mainland thought of each other that way instead of trying to be at each other's throats all the time. Younger generations of Taiwanese increasingly embrace their role as an independent America's client state while the older generations support being treated as members of the Chinese nation. As these older generations die out, Taiwan will become more and more separated from the mainland until eventually, there will be virtually no compassion between Taiwan and mainland. I can only wish that the Taiwanese attitude towards the mainland stems from political issues and not actual contempt for being identified as culturally Chinese.
 

Subedei

Banned Idiot
I have said for some time that a potential wild card alliance could be between China and a unified Korea.

A very interesting possibility! But would the better long-term outcome be achieved through a precisely targeted and executed military campaign, as you suggest, or through masterful use of diplomacy?

I tend to agree more with the following sentiment.

So here is my hope, no war on this place, may be the best opition.
Besides, a SK friend of mine had told me they cannot enjoy fighting this war no matter for what a right reason,
just because both sides are korean, same people from all angles.
 

solarz

Brigadier
I have said for some time that a potential wild card alliance could be between China and a unified Korea.

North Korea has been, and always will be a problem for everyone in the region for obvious reasons. Increasingly, China is seeing NK as a liability instead of an asset, and I think that increasingly, the elite 38th Army of the PLA is stationed in Northern China more as a counter against NK rather than in support of them.

I think you may be underestimating both NK and Kim Jong-un. The fact that the Ryugyong hotel is going to be completed after a 25-year freeze is a significant marker that seems to be overlooked. I think the new NK Leader understand better than the older generation that military development cannot keep pace without economic development as well. What if the SK-USA alliance reaches military technology that renders NK military largely obsolete, including their trump card, the A-bomb? What if China reaches a powerful enough military where they can easily overrun NK?

In order for the Kim dynasty to survive, economic reform is a must. However, economic development necessarily means an end to isolation, which would have a profound impact on NK society. I believe that NK is right now in the same stage as China at the end of the Cultural Revolution.
 

jackliu

Banned Idiot
I find it interesting that you consider ethnic culture such a significant geopolitical influence. As I'm a cultural anthropologist by discipline, I find that intriguing. But I'm not quite convinced! As I've suggested, I think China will have to demonstrate leadership in moderation, compromise, and peace-building in the region in order to gain the confidence of its historical regional adversaries.

Yes, I believe culture plays the most important part here, you can almost say for the past 200 years it was just a temporary break from the way how Asia used to work for the past 2,000 years of history. And I think as soon as China get back on it is feet again, things will go back to normal. Of course they won't be exactly like the old days, but many of the old geopolitical structure will go back the way it was. And of course, with China at the center it does not mean China wins and everyone else looses. Because this relationship will benefit China as much as it will benefit the surrounding nations.

As for China have to demonstrate leadership and all that, that goes without saying so I didn't bother to type it out. I am very confident China can achieve that, and if they don't, they don't deserve to became the leadeship in the first place.


Interesting! They have been rivals in the far, and recent, past.

I actually consider Russia to be one of the nations with the most potential to become an equal partner. Just developing stronger cooperation in the sectors of energy exploration and transport (technologies, techniques, and applications), as well as cooperation in the development of coordinated regional transport infrastructure, could be a significant geopolitical event, offering significant advantages to both nations and the region as a whole. Not to mention that, as few nations export strategic bombers, therefore creating no competition for exports, and that both China and Russia will need to develop a new platform, the potential for future, mutually beneficial cooperation in the sector of defense technology is not out of the question.

In the short term China and Russia will be partners... but partners that keep very close eye on each other. As long as USA will continue to snub Russia, their relationship with China will be friendly. And it is not just that, it is in Russia's best interest to keep China as a friend than an enemy. China is the key to Russia's economic growth, right now they are very dependent on exporting oil and timber to China and this reliance won't ease up as time goes on. But when I am talking about rivals, I am talking about long term views in about 50-100 years. Because if you look at China's surrounding nations, Russia is still the only nation that can posses the most challenge to China, because it is the most organized state along China's border and shares very little common culture with Chinese civilization. And they do have a history of border dispute in the past dated all the way to 500 years ago. But overall Russia will not posses the same challenge to China as the nomadic people did to China for over 2000 years. So in the end, even China was badly humiliated for the past 200 years due to European industrialization, but industrialization itself means eliminating the threat from the nomadic culture to organized/established culture, so in the long term industrialization is the best thing that ever happens to Chinese civilization I think, because it eliminated their age old enemy and let them expand their influence to all over the world far beyond their traditional world views.


I was almost afraid to quote that, but I did for one reason. Iran is a surprisingly modern Islamic nation. Although the face of the regime would not suggest so, Iran, formerly Persia, is a scientifically, philosophically, academically, technologically, and politically, advanced and sophisticated nation with a long and rich history and culture. Had it not been for the imperialistic interventions of the Russo/Anglo/American sphere, Iran might be a very different nation today, and still be Islamic.

Iran is another nation whose resources and capabilities would offer significant advantages in a relationship with China. China is already Iran's largest trading partner.

Oh yes I very much agree with you on Iran, never ever underestimate the Persian people. They have been a thorn of every superpower in history, they were a great challenge to Rome, to the many Arab empires, and they were the first world's first true multicultural empire that existed way before China and Rome.

http://www.sinodefenceforum.com/world-armed-forces/iranian-military-trend-6162.html

I started this trend and noticed that Iran is doing something very different, they are actually the only nation in Middle East that are actively thinking of future and investing into research and development.

But with that being said, Iran still have a huge problem with all Middle East nations. The problem being the society so integrated with religion. And also the problem of repression of woman, when you systemically suppress half of your population due to their birth status, it will not help with your economic, military and cultural growth. And in the end, Iran is just one Middle East nation among dozens, whatever they do will not stop the degradation of rest of the Middle East.

As for Iran being a partner of China, that will very much be the case, but only on a economic and political levels. I doubt there will be any significant exchange on the culture level, because both nation think they are the "hot stuff", they will be polite on exchanging views, but no one will truly accept the other nation's culture. To me, cultural similarity is all that matter, political alliance last as long as both nation benefits, not a second longer than that.
 
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