China's Defense/Military Breaking News Thread

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weig2000

Captain
China lost the Sino-Vietnamese war the same way the U.S. lost the Vietnam War. China won the battles but failed to achieve its strategic objectives. China invaded Vietnam to force Vietnam to stop its invasion of Cambodia. China failed in this regard. Vietnam pulled all its forces back from the Chinese border to protect Hanoi so China had a relatively easy time in the few provinces it occupied.

The other objectives were far less important than protecting the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia--a Chinese ally. (China should be mighty ashamed it tried to protect Pol Pot and the genocidal Khmer Rouge.) Vietnam's economy was extremely weak in 1979 so there wasn't much industry to destroy. That's the same reason the U.S bombing campaign against Vietnam failed to make an impact in the war. Second, most of Vietnam's economy lay outside the few provinces the PLA occupied so even if the PLA wiped out the economy in those provinces, it didn't have much of a impact on the whole Vietnamese economy.

Let's look at the bottom line that doesn't require any disputed casualty statistics. China had two strategic objectives going into the '79 war, prove to Vietnam's leaders their military alliance with the Soviet Union was worthless, and get Vietnam to pull out Cambodia. China was successful in the former and unsuccessful in the latter. The best anyone could reasonably say for China is it achieved limited success, but it in no way imposed its will on Vietnam. So, if "imposing one's will on the enemy" is victory condition in wars, then China failed and Vietnam has some rights to say it won the war.

China has never said, publicly or privately, that the strategic goal of the invasion of Vietnam was to force the stop of Vietnam's invasion of Cambodia or to get Vietnam to pull out Cambodia.

When the war started on February 17, 1979, the Chinese government announced to the world the so-called "self-defense counterattack war" would be limited in time and scope, and that China would not take "any square inch of the territory of Vietnam." Informally, China has always said it wanted to "teach a lesson" to Vietnam. When Deng Xiaoping visited the US from January 29 to February 4, 1979, Deng told President Jimmy Carter that Vietnam needed an "ass-spanking."

In other words, China started the war without a very specific and tangible goal. It was meant to show Vietnam that China meant business and would take military actions if necessary despite Vietnam's defense treaty with the Soviet Union. Keep in mind, at the time Vietnam was invading Cambodia and dominating Lao, acting like a little regional hegemony. From the beginning, China had limited the scope and time of the war, since it did not want to get into a protracted war with Vietnam and the risk of a war with Soviet Union in the North would increase substantially if the war was not limited. Thus, saying that China's strategic goal was to get Vietnam to pull out of Cambodia would not be consistent with the limited war objective. This is because the war would have needed last much longer and the engagements with Vietnamese troop much broader in order to have some chance of achieving that goal. In fact, I think China would need to attack and occupy Hanoi to attract Vietnamese troops in Cambodia. But even that would not have guaranteed that Vietnam would take the bait. Cambodia is deep in the south and Vietnam would avoid large-scale battle with the Chinese, before they would draw Chinese troops deeper into their territory. In fact, this is what they did: Vietnam pulled their major troops back from the border regions. Vietnamese was not stupid.

Now, this was plausible, but still it felt strange that the Chinese did not have a very specific and tangible goal for a war like this, you may ask. But this was not the first border war that China had fought without a specific and tangible goal. The Sino-India border war was similar in this respect. China decided to start a limited border war to "teach a lesson" to India after India was getting very aggressive with its "forward policy" and numerous border conflicts. The Sino-India war about territory, but after a land-slide victory over India troops, China pulled back even from the traditional line of control without taking extra territories. It was said that after the war, Marshall Lin Biao said this war would guarantee the peace with India for at least 30 years.

Sino-Vietnam war was similar, except that it did not achieve a land-slide military victory over Vietnam as the Sino-India war did. Don't forget, though, that the Sino-Vietnam border war continued throughout the '80s, until 1990 when Vietnam pulled out their troops from Cambodia. In 1990, the new Vietnamese leadership requested and got a secret meeting with President Jiang Zeming and Premier Li Peng in Chengdu to make peace with China. The relationship between the two countries were then re-normalized.

So what are the gains and losses, of China and Vietnam, respectively, from this war. Did China succeed or fail this war. This post is getting too long. I'll write another one to give my assessment.
 
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antiterror13

Brigadier
China won, plain and simple ...... not 100%, but perhaps 75%

1. Successfully proved that treaty wit the USSR was worthless (the main objective)
2. China successfully destroyed Vietnamese provinces borders China, it was simply destroyed, everything destroyed, bridges, roads, building, factories, everything. So no more harassment or capacity to attack Chinese border
3. Vietnamese economy and military was significantly weaker

Also Chinese leaderships realised they would need to modernise its military .. Chinese military strength now is more or less the result of the war (one of the contributing factors)
 

Equation

Lieutenant General
Let's look at the bottom line that doesn't require any disputed casualty statistics. China had two strategic objectives going into the '79 war, prove to Vietnam's leaders their military alliance with the Soviet Union was worthless, and get Vietnam to pull out Cambodia. China was successful in the former and unsuccessful in the latter. The best anyone could reasonably say for China is it achieved limited success, but it in no way imposed its will on Vietnam. So, if "imposing one's will on the enemy" is victory condition in wars, then China failed and Vietnam has some rights to say it won the war.

But you can say the same thing that Vietnam had never imposed their will upon Cambodia and Laos as well. Plus China last two naval conflicts with Vietnam (with two different regimes) ended with victories. As a result Chinese borders at both land, air, and sea are secured at that time and area. China has no shortages of weapons, men, and fuel if they wanted to continue the conflict meanwhile Vietnam has been helped by China during their fight against the US has to rely on the former Soviet Union which was impossible to meet because logistics and costs.
 

Blackstone

Brigadier
China has never said, publicly or privately, that the strategic goal of the invasion of Vietnam was to force the stop of Vietnam's invasion of Cambodia or to get Vietnam to pull out Cambodia.
How do you know what was said privately by Chinese leaders on the Vietnam invasion? Are you a China history scholar or former/current CCP official?

When the war started on February 17, 1979, the Chinese government announced to the world the so-called "self-defense counterattack war" would be limited in time and scope, and that China would not take "any square inch of the territory of Vietnam." Informally, China has always said it wanted to "teach a lesson" to Vietnam. When Deng Xiaoping visited the US from January 29 to February 4, 1979, Deng told President Jimmy Carter that Vietnam needed an "ass-spanking."

There's disagreement on casualty numbers, but not on general causes of the war. Most online resources say Sino-Vietnam war had lots of undercurrents, one of the major issues is Deng Xiaoping's fear of Soviet power, and two others were persecution of ethnic Chinese in Vietnam and invasion of Cambodia (a Chinese ally) by the Vietnamese. Henry Kissinger's book "
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" speaks of it as does Gerald Segal's book "
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." Also,
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has a timeline of Sino-Vietnam relations from 1973-2011.

In other words, China started the war without a very specific and tangible goal. It was meant to show Vietnam that China meant business and would take military actions if necessary despite Vietnam's defense treaty with the Soviet Union. Keep in mind, at the time Vietnam was invading Cambodia and dominating Lao, acting like a little regional hegemony. From the beginning, China had limited the scope and time of the war, since it did not want to get into a protracted war with Vietnam and the risk of a war with Soviet Union in the North would increase substantially if the war was not limited. Thus, saying that China's strategic goal was to get Vietnam to pull out of Cambodia would not be consistent with the limited war objective. This is because the war would have needed last much longer and the engagements with Vietnamese troop much broader in order to have some chance of achieving that goal. In fact, I think China would need to attack and occupy Hanoi to attract Vietnamese troops in Cambodia. But even that would not have guaranteed that Vietnam would take the bait. Cambodia is deep in the south and Vietnam would avoid large-scale battle with the Chinese, before they would draw Chinese troops deeper into their territory. In fact, this is what they did: Vietnam pulled their major troops back from the border regions. Vietnamese was not stupid.
You need to support your claim in bold, because it goes against what is widely available on the topic. Can you provide any publications that disputes Cambodia as a strategic objective of the invasion?

Now, this was plausible, but still it felt strange that the Chinese did not have a very specific and tangible goal for a war like this, you may ask. But this was not the first border war that China had fought without a specific and tangible goal. The Sino-India border war was similar in this respect. China decided to start a limited border war to "teach a lesson" to India after India was getting very aggressive with its "forward policy" and numerous border conflicts. The Sino-India war about territory, but after a land-slide victory over India troops, China pulled back even from the traditional line of control without taking extra territories. It was said that after the war, Marshall Lin Biao said this war would guarantee the peace with India for at least 30 years.
All wars have specific objectives, and leaders use simple phrases or ideas to communicate need for actions and/or primary goals. In the Sino-Indian war, Mao wanted to stop India's "Forward Policy," and that's a specific objective. You could call it "teach a lesson" if you like, but China's specific war aim of stopping the Forward Policy was accomplished. Deng Xiaoping's "teach a lesson" had multiple objectives too, and ejecting Vietnam from Cambodia was one of them.

Sino-Vietnam war was similar, except that it did not achieve a land-slide military victory over Vietnam as the Sino-India war did. Don't forget, though, that the Sino-Vietnam border war continued throughout the '80s, until 1990 when Vietnam pulled out their troops from Cambodia. In 1990, the new Vietnamese leadership requested and got a secret meeting with President Jiang Zeming and Premier Li Peng in Chengdu to make peace with China. The relationship between the two countries were then re-normalized.
Border skirmishes happen, especially among rival nations without demilitarized zones. Occasional cross-border shootings aren't "wars." One example just a few days ago is a Mexican military helicopter strayed into US territory during a drug interdiction mission and accidentally fired on our border guards. US didn't consider it an act of war, nor should she.

So what are the gains and losses, of China and Vietnam, respectively, from this war. Did China succeed or fail this war. This post is getting too long. I'll write another one to give my assessment.
Unless you could show some official CCP sources that differ with most of the available Western accounts, it's just your opinion. Wikipedia has a chronicle of the Sino-Vietnam war, and it's inline with other published accounts of Sino strategic objectives. Casualty figures can be disputed, so for initial war aims, we could talk around them.

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Blackstone

Brigadier
China won, plain and simple ...... not 100%, but perhaps 75%

1. Successfully proved that treaty wit the USSR was worthless (the main objective)
2. China successfully destroyed Vietnamese provinces borders China, it was simply destroyed, everything destroyed, bridges, roads, building, factories, everything. So no more harassment or capacity to attack Chinese border
3. Vietnamese economy and military was significantly weaker

Also Chinese leaderships realised they would need to modernise its military .. Chinese military strength now is more or less the result of the war (one of the contributing factors)

China achieved some objectives, but you omitted Deng Xiaoping's aim to eject Vietnam from Cambodia. Vietnam could claim victory in that China never imposed its will on it, and it continued to occupy Cambodia for about a decade.
 

Blackstone

Brigadier
But you can say the same thing that Vietnam had never imposed their will upon Cambodia and Laos as well.

What Laos-Vietnam war do you mean? I'm aware of the Laotian civil war from '53-'75, and US secret war there during the Vietnam War, but I know of no wars between Laos and Vietnam in that period. As for Cambodia, Vietnam invaded it, occupied it, and setup a government friendly to it before leaving. That's pretty good grounds for claiming victory.

Plus China last two naval conflicts with Vietnam (with two different regimes) ended with victories. As a result Chinese borders at both land, air, and sea are secured at that time and area.
China's land borders wasn't secure till it settled them with 12 of 14 of its neighbors, and her maritime borders, other than the Gulf of Tonkin, are still in dispute.

China has no shortages of weapons, men, and fuel if they wanted to continue the conflict meanwhile Vietnam has been helped by China during their fight against the US has to rely on the former Soviet Union which was impossible to meet because logistics and costs.
Not sure what you're trying to say. How does it fit into the Sino-Vietnam conflict?
 

Blackstone

Brigadier
Looks like Xi Jinping's anti-corruption campaign scored another big fish.

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HONG KONG — In the most far-reaching public move so far in President Xi Jinping’s drive against corruption in China, the Communist Party on Monday expelled a retired military commander, Xu Caihou, and handed him over for an investigation into accusations that he took huge bribes in return for military promotions.

Until his retirement in late 2012, General Xu held one of the highest ranks in the People’s Liberation Army, as a vice chairman of the party’s Central Military Commission. He was also a member of the elite Politburo. He has become the most prominent Chinese military leader to be purged in decades, and the most senior official named publicly in Mr. Xi’s campaign to clean up the elite and impose his authority on the party, government and army.

A People’s Liberation Army guard at the Bayi Building in Beijing. President Xi Jinping has reportedly called military corruption the “Gu Junshan phenomenon.”Leader of China Aims at Military With Graft CaseMARCH 31, 2014
The trial of Liu Tienan, former head of the National Energy Administration of China, is likely to attract attention because of his dramatic fall.Former Top Official in China to Face Graft TrialJUNE 23, 2014
Sinosphere Blog: China’s Anticorruption Campaign Moves to a Powerful Party SeatJUNE 27, 2014
The Politburo, made up of 25 senior officials, expelled General Xu from the party and handed his case to prosecutors after hearing the findings of a secretive inquiry started in March, according to an announcement from the Central Commission for Discipline Inspection, the party’s arm for investigating corruption and abuses of power.

“The investigation found Xu Caihou used his office to provide help for others in promotions, and accepted bribes directly or through his family,” said the commission, citing the meeting. “He exploited the influence of his office to bring gain to others, and his family accepted wealth and property from others, gravely violating party discipline and bringing suspicion of the crime of accepting bribes. The circumstances were grave and the effects were malignant.”

The official announcement made clear the lesson for other officials who might fall afoul of investigators.

“No matter how big or small someone’s power, how high or low his office, if he violates party discipline and state law, he will be sternly punished without any indulgence or soft-handedness,” the announcement said.

General Xu was the most prominent military leader to be purged in a generation, said Christopher K. Johnson, an expert on Chinese politics at the Center for Strategic and International Studies in Washington. But Mr. Xi was likely to claim more, and possibly even more powerful, targets while he used the campaign against graft to consolidate power, Mr. Johnson added in a telephone interview.

“I think Xi is building to a crescendo, and he’s aiming for others to be rolled out,” Mr. Johnson said. “This is the most high-profile attack on a military figure since Deng Xiaoping’s time. There’s a message here from Xi to all resisters. It also sends a huge message on defense structural reform.”

In 1992, the paramount leader Deng Xiaoping forced two senior military figures — Yang Shangkun and his half brother Yang Baibing — from the center stage of power after their influence threatened to undermine Deng’s preferred leader, Jiang Zemin. Now Mr. Xi has sent a similarly assertive signal, as he prepares to recast the organization of the military, Mr. Johnson said.

“This is the most high-profile attack on the military since Deng Xiaoping booted the Yang brothers,” he said.

Nor was General Xu the only former senior official targeted by the meeting Monday. Xinhua announced that the Politburo also expelled from the party Li Dongsheng, a former vice minister of public security, who party investigators found took huge bribes, as well as two former executives of a state oil conglomerate, Jiang Jiemin and Wang Yongchun, who were accused of similar misdeeds.

The case against General Xu could serve to deter official graft while helping Mr. Xi tighten his hold on the party, M. Taylor Fravel, an associate professor of political science at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology who studies China’s military, said in a telephone interview. “Given the way in which the party is constituted, any personnel decision has political implications,” he said.

As a senior officer in the People’s Liberation Army’s General Political Department, and its director from 2002 to 2004, General Xu had a big say in promoting officers. Two people close to senior officials have said that, according to a briefing given to officials in recent weeks, General Xu was accused of taking large sums of cash and gifts in return for securing promotions right up to senior levels of the military. Both of those people — a military researcher and a television producer — spoke on the condition of anonymity before the announcement, citing the risk of official repercussions for discussing the confidential investigation.
 

antiterror13

Brigadier
China achieved some objectives, but you omitted Deng Xiaoping's aim to eject Vietnam from Cambodia. Vietnam could claim victory in that China never imposed its will on it, and it continued to occupy Cambodia for about a decade.

Thats why I said 75%, not 100% victory
 

nugroho

Junior Member
Is it true to pay $16000 to enter PLA?

I am outside China, and read Bloomberg
Chinese Families Pay $16,000 for Kids to Pass Army Entrance Exam
The calls started months ago to the recruitment office in the eastern Chinese province of Jiangxi, asking how much it would cost to pass this year’s tests to join the army. The going rate, depending on your “guanxi,” or connections: As much as $16,000.

Limited spots in annual recruitment drives across China’s 31 provinces and municipalities for the world’s largest army, plus a high failure rate for physical fitness tests, leads parents to pay to guarantee a spot for their child in the enlistment season that runs through September. Success offers a stable job and, for some, a path out of rural districts.

“They asked me what the current price tag is, and I said ‘around 80,000 to 90,000 yuan for you guys,’” said Wang, a recruitment officer with the People’s Liberation Army in Jiangxi, referring to former military colleagues who call him. “If your guanxi was really strong it’d cost you around 50,000 to 60,000 yuan per quota; if it was just so-so, you would have to spend 100,000 yuan at least.” Wang asked not to be identified in full as he isn’t authorized to speak publicly.

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is it true that to enter PLA Chinese must pay?
please enlighten me
 

bd popeye

The Last Jedi
VIP Professional
Re: Is it true to pay $16000 to enter PLA?

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is it true that to enter PLA Chinese must pay?
please enlighten me

nugroho, I don't know if this is true or not...However, thanks for posting..interesting story.

I'm finding this hard to believe without an independent source verifying this story. Now if this is true it is reprehensible. As bad as the recruiting scandals in the US about 8-10 years ago. Where recruiters were padding their numbers by taking unqualified persons.

If anyone can verify this story or knows anyone that has experienced this please post that here. No names please... Thanks.
 
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