terrorhunter
Banned Idiot
the type 88 was never meant to be a sniper rifle. its a marksman rifle which serves a different purpose.
China wins third place in 2010 Sniper World Cup!!!
- Thread starter siegecrossbow
- Start date
- Status
the type 88 was never meant to be a sniper rifle. its a marksman rifle which serves a different purpose.
Semi-Lobster
Junior Member
Exactly, it is falls under the category of 'Designated Marksmen rifle', in the same sort of category as the Russian SVD or American M14DMR
Which was probably the reason for the disqualification.
plawolf
Lieutenant General
It would have been interesting to see how the team would have performed had they allowed the type88. For a sniper, being intimately familiar with their weapon is often more useful and important than a slightly more accurate weapon.
Also, since the organisers supply the ammo, it makes me wonder if that might have also played a part in the disqualigication decision if they didn't have the 5.8mm ammo. It seems strange on the face of it that they would disqualify an 'inferior' gun, as normal rules are there to prevent someone from gaining an unfair advantage through the use of equipment.
Also, since the organisers supply the ammo, it makes me wonder if that might have also played a part in the disqualigication decision if they didn't have the 5.8mm ammo. It seems strange on the face of it that they would disqualify an 'inferior' gun, as normal rules are there to prevent someone from gaining an unfair advantage through the use of equipment.
What is interesting is that, China had made advances in multiple areas in military technology from the very high tech (anti-satellite systems, JL-2, DF-31, anti-ship ballistic missiles, etc) to the lower technology system (Type-95 and a number of SMG... even the Type-99 MBT - consider low tech as compare to the anti-satellite system).
But they cannot come out with a decide sniper rifle? A decent ammunition for their sniper rifle? Whats the deal?
But they cannot come out with a decide sniper rifle? A decent ammunition for their sniper rifle? Whats the deal?
Well why would you invest in something if its not on the priority listing. China has different doctrines compared to America, its still loosely Soviet based. Its not that China can't do it, it's that they haven't invested in it as heavily or given it that much attention. Before the 2008 Olympics, China purchased dozens of high quality domestic sniper scopes, produced by private firms. And from memory from one of our members referencing Chinese articles, that China has stepped away from State run optic producers to Private run optic producers for high quality sniper scopes. They can nearly grind the lenses just as fine as any nation out there.
Its good to know that private firms are being more competitive and more creative and professional now. This should raise the future standard hopefully.
Correct. As people said its not a sniper rifle, so obviously its not gonna perform the same way. It wasn't built to fill that role.
MwRYum
Major
According to what I read at China's side, the PAP teams took part in such international competitions in recent years are using Remington M700 series - the M700PSS, and their score greatly improved since.
While the military and the police has the potential requirement for such weapon, it has never come up in official agenda as yet, neither were the needed technology and expertise to make sniper rifles, as well as the bullets of such grade, available to China yet. Eventhough things are making headway towards the right direction in recent years, so long the military don't draw up an official requirement for a professional sniping system (not just the rifle, optics and bullets included) as per the international standard in this regard, there's little the manufacturers can do.
While the military and the police has the potential requirement for such weapon, it has never come up in official agenda as yet, neither were the needed technology and expertise to make sniper rifles, as well as the bullets of such grade, available to China yet. Eventhough things are making headway towards the right direction in recent years, so long the military don't draw up an official requirement for a professional sniping system (not just the rifle, optics and bullets included) as per the international standard in this regard, there's little the manufacturers can do.
Asymptote
Banned Idiot
Limited resources (not just material resources, but largely actual talents). China, very much like Russia, focus on strategic weapon first - that's why most of the advances are focus on strategic parity. This gets filter down to tactical weapons, then crew use weapon LAST. But as China advances in its industries, and education, it will eventually get more talents entering market that will help in this regards. Although I still believe Western countries will still be generations ahead.
The reason being : Weapon manufacturers face not much restriction setting up in western countries. Take for example, the relative "simple" pistol manufacturers. An average Joe in America could easily get a gun license (sometimes he doesn't even need to!), learn the trick of the trade in his spare time and start an small arm design business within a year! There are over THOUSANDS of such companies in America (gunsmiths) - and also due to relaxed gun laws and the prevalent gun culture, it creates a large pool of talents consistently because of everyone's familiarity with gun. Where as in China, from what I understand, guns are strictly forbidden, which makes the understanding of gun, its use, and mechanism very limited to the general population. Without knowing the mechanism and its use, it makes the barrier entry into the industry extremely high - even if you get a very smart college graduate who has absolutely no experience with gun, he will find it hard to design a new and improved gun - much of his time will be just learning and retracing the steps of the past. The extremely strict rules regarding weapon manufacturers also stops organic growth of the arm industries (unless it's state approved/sponsored). There are less than 10 arm manufacturers that are known to the west (JS, Norico, Poly Technologies... just from the top of my head). This is why you see so few military technology improvement in this regard. Let's put it this way. Everyone loves eating and cooking in China right?
D) that's why you get top talents for cooking and lots of restaurants everywhere (almost to the point of every steps there is a eatery every 2 steps of the way in the city). Low entry requirement and huge rewards fuel this boom and the fierce competition creates top talents.
Last edited:
MwRYum
Major
.... Let's put it this way. Everyone loves eating and cooking in China right?
I beg to differ...Chinese good at cooking is because we're generally poor by traditions - bar the exquisite royal dishes, Chinese food borne from the need and desire to make the most out of whatever at hand, which isn't much for most folks, so there comes the "eat almost anything" culture.
Now back to topic...
If you really look at it, the west have their sniping systems borne from a long traditions of hunting rifles, you guys got literally centuries to perfect the art and science of it! Not to mention the wide acceptance of game hunting. To the point it has already reach its zenith, only minor tweak in material science or chemistry on propellants if the recent development to go by.
China, on the other hand, never has such base to work with (what'd be called modern gun works only began after Qing dynasty got their arse kicked in the late 19th centrury), neither did it has the demand for sniping systems officially, though only recently that the requirement for something more than a designated marksman rifle is catching on, but still not enough to drive the wind of change to get the official requirements to be issued.
plawolf
Lieutenant General
You guys raised some good points on hunting and gun ownership traditions' effect on snipers.
Lets not forget that the fathers of the modern military sniper were Scottish hunters who employed their tradecraft on the battlefields of WWI.
While the military has spent a lot of time and resources developing the art in the decades since, a lot of the innovation and development comes from individual snipers themselves. Many of the best sniper rifle brands were created by keen shooters. These people have an advantage over scientists in that they have a lifetime of experience to draw on, whereas a scientist will be relying on graphs and computer models.
In many western countries, especially the US and Canada, gun laws are pretty lax and a lot of people literally grown up with guns. OTOH, most Chinese will only get their first look at a gun during a short period of military training at the start of high school.
Western Snipers will also get the chance to refine and practice their skills at home when off duty, whereas Chinese soldiers will get no such option since private gun ownership is banned in China.
Coming 3rd place is an amazing accomplishment when you take in the full picture. However, I do not think China will be able to design top class sniper rifles until they start involving snipers in the design process from the very start, much like what was done with fighter design.
Lets not forget that the fathers of the modern military sniper were Scottish hunters who employed their tradecraft on the battlefields of WWI.
While the military has spent a lot of time and resources developing the art in the decades since, a lot of the innovation and development comes from individual snipers themselves. Many of the best sniper rifle brands were created by keen shooters. These people have an advantage over scientists in that they have a lifetime of experience to draw on, whereas a scientist will be relying on graphs and computer models.
In many western countries, especially the US and Canada, gun laws are pretty lax and a lot of people literally grown up with guns. OTOH, most Chinese will only get their first look at a gun during a short period of military training at the start of high school.
Western Snipers will also get the chance to refine and practice their skills at home when off duty, whereas Chinese soldiers will get no such option since private gun ownership is banned in China.
Coming 3rd place is an amazing accomplishment when you take in the full picture. However, I do not think China will be able to design top class sniper rifles until they start involving snipers in the design process from the very start, much like what was done with fighter design.
- Status