China-US-Taiwan Economic (Temp closed-pls read my last post)

solarz said:

If Li succeeds in getting the US to back off their plans to visit Taiwan, then he will likely be commended, regardless of what he said.

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Sure, not only him but whoever gave him the permission to say such things.

Since the issue at hand is about whether there is an existing policy. Let examine the balances of probability shall we:

First, Chinese officials at public functions seldom go off the approved script.
Second, no denial/downplay of this statements from any Chinese official ministries.
Third, lively discussion of Li statements are allowed on Chinese social media about this.
Fourth, the wordings/ resultant interpretations of anti secession law is purposefully vague and loaded with ambiguity which allows Chinese government to classify any unapproved visit foreign military to Taiwan as a violation especially article 8. China can view US's military ships docking in Taiwan as a major event that could lead to Taiwan's separation (see Plawolf's logic posted earlier).
Fifth, In PRC's perspective, anti-secession law is a domestic law which apples to Taiwan since it consider Taiwan a part of the country. It only needs to provide legal basis for PRC to act and satisfy the need for legal basis for Chinese citizens. Its passage could already be considered as an official policy.

My interpretation of Li's statement is that it has clarified some of the ambiguity regarding Taiwan in the Anti-secession law.

I think some members have a very skewed perception when it comes to the topic of biases. It's clear that most posters (including me) are generally pro-China, which is reflected in their discussions and not a problem.
However, there is a double standard when it comes to posts that are prejudiced or racist about certain groups. Imagine a senior member writing that American strategy about China should be "to completely eliminate or completely absorb," that East Asian culture is lacking when it comes to STEM, and about the negative traits of the Han race. I'm sure that multiple people would have called them out for each comment.
What actually happened was the opposite: those comments were made about other groups (Vietnam, Anglo culture, Yamato race), all received multiple likes and zero criticism (one was moderated). If you can't remember the comments in question, I'll gladly link them.

texx1 said:

The anti us/western sentiments on SDF have been very well taken care of by Jeff. An argument could reasonably be made that perhaps it is too well taken care of especially in cases where members are merely explaining facts and perspectives from PR China. As Blitzo puts it, their views can be considered as pro china. Do those views run counter to the US/western narratives/views championed by you? Of course they are. Let us not kid ourselves. Deep down China and US are geopolitical rivals engaging each other covertly and in the peripherals even though their economic interdependence makes direct conflicts less and less likely.

If you are going to classify reasonable pro china viewpoints as anti western/us and condemn them, that's your prerogative. But eliminating pro-china views on SDF is not likely to help the development of this forum. What makes SDF unique and refreshing (for me personally) is that this forum doesn't consist of a regurgitation of the usual western mainstream talking points and many members (pro-china) understand the nuance of PLA watching.

Again, I would like to support Blitzo's elevation to moderator so that reasonable pro china views are not automatically treated as anti western/us. I think it's vital that we hear more about how Chinese view geopolitical/military developments.



While I agree BD was a great member who shared many insights on military issues from a technical standpoints, his absence hasn't really caused the forum to shut down has it? Anyway, if my memory serves me correctly, BD resigned as a moderator during the Ukrainian crisis where he wanted to shut down Ukrainian crisis discussion and stop members from sharing Russian narratives. Sampan and BD had a disagreement over that.



Jeff should be commanded for performing his role while battling cancer. However, his absence was noted as Blitzo correctly pointed out. Also leaders are not infallible. Dissents are healthy for the long term viability of any organisations, it is not undermining or disrespectful to point out ones' concerns.

Btw, has webmaster actually communicated to you that he wants to abandon SDF because of the so called "nastiness"? Only you so far have brought up this point many times. If it's possible, would you kindly share the relevant communications with the rest of us?

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I have no qualm, nor concerns about anyone on this forum being and expressing their Pro China viewpoint, it is in fact the Sino Defense Forum...not a "guided discussion"

and I am Pro USA and Pro West,, I do hate our own failings and own them as a US Citizen, Hell, I hate my own failings, and as many here have pointed out, they are many and varied,, thankfully I worship a real Jesus! Our once great Christian Nation is even now under the mighty hand of God's discipline and judgement.

As to the Webmaster?? that mysterious and benevolent Dictator, he has attempted and continues to attempt to allow SDF to grow and flourish,,, I'm sure it was that belief in you all, which allowed him to relax his grip and allow you your full freedom of self expression and self governance??? in that, I'm afraid we have "failed this city"??

Thankfully he and his wagon train with new Winchesters for the Moderators has finally completed a dangerous, but necessary journey through the "badlands"!

all the Air Force Brat can do is marvel at that silver bullet, and say "Who was that Masked MAN!"

my Great Grandma was full blooded Cherokee,,, I'm proud of that, my bow, and my big knife! but I'm also thankful, and thankful for the SDF....

Air Force Brat said:

I have no qualm, nor concerns about anyone on this forum being and expressing their Pro China viewpoint, it is in fact the Sino Defense Forum...not a "guided discussion"

and I am Pro USA and Pro West,, I do hate our own failings and own them as a US Citizen, Hell, I hate my own failings, and as many here have pointed out, they are many and varied,, thankfully I worship a real Jesus! Our once great Christian Nation is even now under the mighty hand of God's discipline and judgement.

As to the Webmaster?? that mysterious and benevolent Dictator, he has attempted and continues to attempt to allow SDF to grow and flourish,,, I'm sure it was that belief in you all, which allowed him to relax his grip and allow you your full freedom of self expression and self governance??? in that, I'm afraid we have "failed this city"??

Thankfully he and his wagon train with new Winchesters for the Moderators has finally completed a dangerous, but necessary journey through the "badlands"!

all the Air Force Brat can do is marvel at that silver bullet, and say "Who was that Masked MAN!"

my Great Grandma was full blooded Cherokee,,, I'm proud of that, my bow, and my big knife! but I'm also thankful, and thankful for the SDF....

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????

I won't respond to the religious comments.

I only hope you will give a definitive answer as to whether webmaster has told you personally that he may want to shut down SDF due to so called "nastiness". If the answer is yes, would you kindly show his communications to the rest of us? If not, I would respectfully ask you to refrain from invoking webmaster's name and presuming his intentions.

Klon said:

I think some members have a very skewed perception when it comes to the topic of biases. It's clear that most posters (including me) are generally pro-China, which is reflected in their discussions and not a problem.
However, there is a double standard when it comes to posts that are prejudiced or racist about certain groups. Imagine a senior member writing that American strategy about China should be "to completely eliminate or completely absorb," that East Asian culture is lacking when it comes to STEM, and about the negative traits of the Han race. I'm sure that multiple people would have called them out for each comment.
What actually happened was the opposite: those comments were made about other groups (Vietnam, Anglo culture, Yamato race), all received multiple likes and zero criticism (one was moderated). If you can't remember the comments in question, I'll gladly link them.

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IMO there is a double standard on both sides, i.e.: the pro China side and the more pro US/pro west side, and comments which do not directly target either side and instead target other groups tend to go more unnoticed and more un-moderated.


Some things are (or should be) less acceptable than others -- stereotypes about other ethnic groups or generalizations should definitely be warned against. But other things, such as national strategies and geopolitics should be more open and allowed -- e.g.: if a nation's explicitly self described goal was to completely absorb another nation or something, then that is a valid part of the conversation.



At the end of the day, I think sinodefence forum is not too different from other forums dedicated to other national military forces. Sinodefence, as with most of the others, all have a degree of pro X group and anti Y group sentiments, which is a result of the demographics of the users.
I would like to see better moderation for both anti China and both anti US (and anti other) sentiments on SDF, but the composition of the user base will mean it is always going to be a little more pro China and more anti US than other forums (some of which might be more pro US and more anti China).

I'm not sure what can be done to make it more "equitable" (if that is even desirable in the first place), because the result will likely be a substantial loss of many of the more knowledgeable Chinese members here who provide the bulk of the actual up to date and high quality Chinese military watching knowledge. The result will probably be an SDF that is more of a traditional English language general defence forum.

CCTV talkshow on Li Kexin's speech

texx1 said:

????

I won't respond to the religious comments.

I only hope you will give a definitive answer as to whether webmaster has told you personally that he may want to shut down SDF due to so called "nastiness". If the answer is yes, would you kindly show his communications to the rest of us? If not, I would respectfully ask you to refrain from invoking webmaster's name and presuming his intentions.

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Texx, Texx, Texx,, easy there bud,,,, it's NOT a religious comment feller, and I NEVER stated that Webby told me he was gonna shut the forum down because of nasty, snarky little posters! and furthermore, what Webby and I have or have not talked about is none of your business..

but Sino Defense is a very small forum, it doesn't make much on advertising, I suppose Webby started and supports it because he believes its a great idea,, I'm just saying it has to be disappointing to him to see all this negative krap!

I've only defended Webby's honor and good name, just as I will always speak for, and defend the honor and intentions of our very fine Moderator's,,, hey, I may be BFL before midnight! I really do miss BD, and I'm very thankful that Webby has backed up his Moderator's..

cheers, and lighten up, you take yourself far to seriously!

@siegecrossbow @Deino @Bltizo @Air Force Brat @Equation @FORBIN @bd popeye @SamuraiBlue @texx1 @jobjed @solarz @duncanidaho @AeroEngineer @Blackstone @asif iqbal @escobar @Jovian

I hope everyone will read this in light of all that has gone on.

There has been a lot of discussion about bias...and whether there is any, should be any, etc.

Let me make my own views and my own efforts clear, and make clear what I believe over the years the entire moderation team has tried to accomplish..

Of course there are biases. Everyone has them. Whether people have biases or not is not the issue.

The issue is how the acceptance of, or vocalization of the biases is handled on the forum.

Every one of you know that I am an American, and I believe you most know that I took an oath to protect and defend the US Constitution against all enemies foreign or domestic, and to bear true faith and allegiance to the US Constitution. I did, and I do...and it is the type of oath that is life long.

However, my pushing that bias, or my trying to enforce others in that bias or oath has no place on SD.

SD is not the US government. SD is not the US Military. SD is not a place that is attempting to attack the US or its constitution. SD is a web based defense forum meant to discuss military and defense technology of the day in China and elsewhere in the world.

It is not meant to be a place where politics and these biases bare sway in any real fashion. It is a place where we want to try and discuss the technologies and the capabilities of various military and defense issues, their technology, their cost, their capabilities etc. It is also a place to be able to discuss certain countries and their beauty, pictures, and non-bias oriented cultural things...bu principally defense technologies.

Common sense will tell you that if people get the idea that one or the other bias and its rising above others is acceptable that people will come here and invite their friends who share and push those biases to come here...and then SD will no longer be a Military Defense Forum...it will become a political forum full of flame wars, attacks, insults, and degradation as the sides line up against each other.

We have have attempted to keep that type of thing from happening and to stop such bias on both sides. I have tried to do all in my power in my time here and will continue to do so. It is what we must do if we want SD to remain the preeminent place on the web where people of all sorts come to discuss defense.

...and in the past they have and are still here.

As long as people follow the rules and do not push their bias, or try and insult of others who may feel differently, then people from Pakistan and India, people from Saudi Arabia and Israel, people from China and the the US, or China and Japan, etc., etc. can coexist on this forum and get a lot of pleasure and a lot of goo information from one another.

So the rules are written to forbid politics, and insulting bias activity, etc. and we have policed the biases and will continue to do so.

It does not mean people do not have them...of course they do. We are asking people to be mature about them and not come here to express, push, or lift up such biases over other people.

SD IS NOT FOR THAT!

If that is what any poster wants to do...GO SOMEWHERE ELSE.

On the other hand, if you can pretty much leave such ideology and pushing it on others at the door, and want to discuss military technology without the bias and learn about it...and also maybe learn about other people without all the negativity, bias, insults, flame wars, etc...then SD is meant for you.

That is what SD is about, and will remain about as long as I have any say or influence with it.

In fact, I intend to take this post and put it as an introduction to SD and our rules, and then have the rules listed after it.

I hope folks understand this and will live up to it...all of us.

It is the way we moderate and try and operate SD...and it is something that everyone should know when signing up to post here at SD.

Thanks.