China plans to build military base in US Soil

My question is Popeye.... have you seen the port you're talking about and how rundown or modernized is it? I may have to drive down thier and evaluate the facility for myself if I can find some high ground nearby in which to view it.

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It is now a modern facility used to off load container ships from China. You can go take a look but you can't get inside. I'm sure the drydocks are intact. As are other buildings. How usable are the drydocks and work shops? Your guess is as good as mine.

Everyone working there is Chinese from the PRC.. They get to take tours of the sites in So. California. Otherwise they remain at COSCO.

bd popeye said:

It is now a modern faclity used to off load container ships from China. You can go take a look but you can't get inside. I'm sure the drydocks are intact. As are other buildings. How usable are the drydocks and work shops? Your guess is as good as mine.

Everyone working there is Chinese from the PRC.. They get to take tours of the sites in So. California. Otherwise they remain at COSCO.

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I underlined your last paragraph Popeye and bolded it.... a very genteel way of putting something very important.

If I were the Chinese politburo I would limit any access ordinary Chinese citizens working in America have to western cultural influences. (To taste United States culture is almost always to like it, and want more). I am sure the rules for COSCO employees about extended or unsupervised access to locations outside the COSCO facility are enforced to the furthest extent a rule can be enforced upon any individual.

From the politburos point of view allowing privileged academics to live in America for a time is one thing. Allowing the type of citizen that would make up the majority of the COSCO dock staff to roam outside of the chinese owned areas and take in the local culture.... would not be desired by high party officials in China.... I doubt any dock worker at COSCO is ever granted anything more then a 5-8 hour pass to roam free,at the very maximum. Conversely Americans allowed inside the facility would consist only of US state, local and national officials and support staff.

I may for kicks however put in a request to tour the facility that would 99.9999% certainty be rejected.... if for no other reason to annoy the communist party officals. How much do you want to bet I would be taken to areas where I could not speak with the dock workers even if I was granted a tour lol....

If I were the Chinese politburo I would limit any access ordinary Chinese citizens working in America have to western cultural influences. (To taste United States culture is almost always to like it, and want more).

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If you read the Cox Report, those people are the ones that most likely are potential spies. It works both ways. And if you are one to believe that China does steal all its technology from the US, then it works the other way probably better. So why would the PRC try to limit it when they gain more than they lose?

That's really irrelevant because cultural aspects of both sides more and not politics play as barriers. All the things you think ordinary Chinese will love about the US isn't a monopoly of the US. They can get that from other countries. All the things that are uniquely American will be shut out from them because it's an exclusive "club." And you haven't heard of the many cases of Chinese who fail in business in the US that move back to China and are successful because they have the opportunities there that weren't given to them in the US? Mainly because there are glass ceilings in the US that prevent them from rising.

What uniquely cultural things in the US can you be talking about? Popular music? Sports? Celebrity? Politics? Sorry but all those things are not values of the Chinese. And if you've notice those things require the acceptance of the masses to be successful. How many Asians in the US in general have been successful in those fields? Not many including non-Chinese. To which brings up the question... why? So either they're not successful because those are careers they don't pursue or they aren't being accepted by the masses. If not many Asians in general are successful in these careers, it's not a driving force to stay or get in the US. When you're an engineer, you don't need to be popular in order to put together a nuclear bomb. What's more valuable for a society? Catching a touchdown in the end zone or being able to build a bridge? Economics drives immigration more than politics. Just like I read in an article that ordinary Russians are moving to China or how Sunni, Shiite, and Kurd refugees live peacefully together in a Chinese southern city. It ain't the politics! It's all economics.

If you read the Cox Report, those people are the ones that most likely are potential spies. It works both ways. And if you are one to believe that China does steal all its technology from the US, then it works the other way probably better. So why would the PRC try to limit it when they gain more than they lose?

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They do not so much limit it as limit to the party hacks that can be trusted but to those people who are likely to enjoy living in a open society more then a closed one.... aka any person smart enough to know the difference when they see it.

That's really irrelevant because cultural aspects of both sides more and not politics play as barriers. All the things you think ordinary Chinese will love about the US isn't a monopoly of the US. They can get that from other countries.

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But they cannot get those things from china itself. Little things like the ability to live where you want without govt permission, checks and balances, true separation of powers, limited government, elections that are more then crass political theater, multi party rule, and freedom of speech simply do not exist in china. Such things are not truly enjoyed in at least half of the world.

All the things that are uniquely American will be shut out from them because it's an exclusive "club." And you haven't heard of the many cases of Chinese who fail in business in the US that move back to China and are successful because they have the opportunities there that weren't given to them in the US? Mainly because there are glass ceilings in the US that prevent them from rising.

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China isn't a country that is often called "the land of opportunity" but can you think of one that is? If you fail at business in the USA then its more often then not likely that your simply not good at business. I have had a couple of businesses die right out from under me and I am not going to blame other people (its dishonest, inaccurate and does not solve the problem). If anything America is a very tolerant and sensitive place. To say that anybody is treated unfairly in a pre-meditated and systematic way,,,with all the bleeding hearts running about, is just funny as hell.

Compare and contrast this to China where the governments permission is needed in order to do almost anything of economic significance. The United States is surely over-regulated (especially when you compare the present day to its founding over 200 years ago). Yet even the most socialist elements of American law are quite limited and powerless compared to thier mainland chinese equvalents.

Crys of the mythical "Glass ceiling" is funny as hell because the whole theroy is so discredited. Even AL Sharpton, Hillery Clinton, and other far left of center folks do not use that terminology anymore simply because study after study destroyed the "glass celeing" as a talking point.

Oh and buy the way ... opprotunities are not given they are ceased by those with the smarts to see one. In a planned economey or one that is a closed society, the only opprotunities may be the one the government hands you.

What uniquely cultural things in the US can you be talking about? Popular music? Sports? Celebrity? Politics? Sorry but all those things are not values of the Chinese. And if you've notice those things require the acceptance of the masses to be successful. How many Asians in the US in general have been successful in those fields? Not many including non-Chinese. To which brings up the question... why? So either they're not successful because those are careers they don't pursue or they aren't being accepted by the masses. If not many Asians in general are successful in these careers, it's not a driving force to stay or get in the US. When you're an engineer, you don't need to be popular in order to put together a nuclear bomb. What's more valuable for a society? Catching a touchdown in the end zone or being able to build a bridge? Economics drives immigration more than politics. Just like I read in an article that ordinary Russians are moving to China or how Sunni, Shiite, and Kurd refugees live peacefully together in a Chinese southern city. It ain't the politics! It's all economics.

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It may be "all economics" as you say. However being an open society is an economic good, and open societies nearly always outperform closed societies on a per capita basis. The politburo has been really lucky so far. They opened up their markets without granting any political freedoms. Its a balancing act that cannot hold forever. The choices that the Chinese people no have in choosing what goods they buy will cause then to question why they cannot make any choices in regards to what political party they belong to or why they cannot choose when it comes to politics.

Their is a reason why its referred to as "democratic capitalism" even though the first word is one from politics and the second one is one from economics. The ability the choose inherent in both words is why they cannot be kept seprate with much success. Both thrive or fall together and having one without the other is inherently unstable.

They do not so much limit it as limit to the party hacks that can be trusted but to those people who are likely to enjoy living in a open society more then a closed one.... aka any person smart enough to know the difference when they see it.

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That goes in contradiction to what the Cox Report says. I believe it's been quoted that the majority of Chinese in the US are potential spies for China. I believe that includes the people you're talking about.

But they cannot get those things from china itself. Little things like the ability to live where you want without govt permission, checks and balances, true separation of powers, limited government, elections that are more then crass political theater, multi party rule, and freedom of speech simply do not exist in china. Such things are not truly enjoyed in at least half of the world.

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And you're mistaken that the Chinese people are political. If they were, there would be constant revolutions. And you mistake the power of the communist party. If it were as powerful as the stereotypes suggest, there would be no crime or the thousands of protests you hear happen in China that don't result in a Tiananmen massacre. And those protests are all about the economics of their lives and not politics. Which is why the economy is paramount over everything else in the minds of the politicians and people in China.

China isn't a country that is often called "the land of opportunity" but can you think of one that is?

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Did I say that? The universe operates in more than just black and white. So don't assume so much.

If you fail at business in the USA then its more often then not likely that your simply not good at business.

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I guess you just ignored what I stated about Chinese going back to do business in China and being more successful, i.e, the richest self-made woman in the world being in China. That shouldn't happen in the China you stereotype. And apparently you don't know that a good portion of the new entrepreneurs and non-state owned businesses in China are of people that lived in Western countries and then moved back to be major players in China's economy. If one experiences Western culture and doesn't go back, explain how they broke that belief. Like I said economics trumps politics.

And it's convenient to explain everything away as "laziness" in part of those that have faced the glass ceiling. But like I pointed out and you ignored, if that were true then why are there people that lived in the West at all in China doing better there than living in the West? According to you that shouldn't be happening at all.

I know plenty of people that aren't in business that have moved back to China from the US and none of them did it because of politics nor were they entranced and captured by the unique US cultural values that you say are so irresistable. Really if they were so lured by the freedoms you say are important after experiencing them, then why do people even move back? Because either they are denied those freedoms or like I said... they don't exercise those freedoms enough in their private lives to care as much as you say they should.

If everything is as absolute and balck and white as you make it, then why are those things happening? The "rules" of yours are being broken.

With regards to the former Long Beach Naval Station, It is has indeed been converted into Long Beach Port Authority terminal T, berth 132-140. The wharf is over 5000 feet long with 14 brand new gantry cranes. It is just down the channel from my Matson Navigation facility at pier C. Contrary to older information still kicking around the internet, terminal T has been leased for 25 years to the South Korean containership line, Hanjin Shipping Lines. All of the cranes at the terminal are clearly marked with the Hanjin logo. Hanjin does alow several other lines to use this facility, namely ZIM, K-Line, Yang Ming Line, Wan Hai Lines & Cosco. All of the Longshoreman including crane operators working at terminal T and all Long Beach and Los Angeles terminals are members of the (ILWU) International Longshore & Warehouse Union. I only wish I made the same wages as the ILWU workers. I did visit terminal T not too long ago and nothing is left of the old base except for the large old sealed drydock.

Intresting BOSUN..looking foward to more post by you..

In reguards to Long Beach ..When I lived in San Diego I worked for the largest rental car company in the world. On several ocassions I delivered trucks and vans to the area described for shipment overseas. Everyone I dealt with was American. I never saw any Chinese citizens about the area.

In San Diego if one frequents one of the 12 SD casinos you will see buses off loading Chinese citizens that work for COSCO. I asked one of the bus drives where these people were from. And he told me. He also mentioned they get to go to various tourist sites in SoCal. Evertime I ever saw them they were occompanied by a well dressed English speaking Chinese "Guide"...

bd popeye said:

Intresting BOSUN..looking foward to more post by you..

In reguards to Long Beach ..When I lived in San Diego I worked for the largest rental car company in the world. On several ocassions I delivered trucks and vans to the area described for shipment overseas. Everyone I dealt with was American. I never saw any Chinese citizens about the area.

In San Diego if one frequents one of the 12 SD casinos you will see buses off loading Chinese citizens that work for COSCO. I asked one of the bus drives where these people were from. And he told me. He also mentioned they get to go to various tourist sites in SoCal. Evertime I ever saw them they were occompanied by a well dressed English speaking Chinese "Guide"...

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There really is a far less sinister explanation for all this... there is a tendency of outsiders to ascribe to the Chinese the most worse motives. Let's assume they are imported Ethiopian or Pakistani workers, how would we explain this?

Well, simple, really. They get paid nowhere near enough to spend well in America... so they go on company organised (thus cheaper) trips... and they need a guide because they mostly don't speak English. There are plenty of good-English speaking people in China, but they don't come cheap and won't want to work in a job like that anyway (the pay would be substantially higher than in China, but not by THAT much so you can lure a university graduate away. If you speak English well, you go to work for a multinational in China, or a Chinese firm going multinational). Chinese workers in Iraq, Pakistan and Afghanistan pretty much behave like this, too (granted, there isn't as much fun to be had in the countries named), so I think there really isn't that much to it.

Anyway, we should lass a REALITY CHECK... there are millions of foreigners in China, one million Taiwanese alone. China is haemophraging people at around 200,000 a year (CIA world fackbook) to emigration, and they pirate billions of dollar's worth of American movies and books, so it's not like the PRC is a closed society where they fear any contamination of freedom... if they are, it's also way, way too late to stop said contamination.

Troika's explanation sounds correct. Before 9-11, I saw plenty plenty of Chinese tourists without "chaperones" watching over them. Countries all around the world are vying for Chinese tourism that number in the millions who travel outside China. I don't think China appoints escorts for every single one of them. And a vast majority of them go back without defecting.

In China, many workers live in dorms provided by the company they work for. Why? Because many of these workers come from the countryside that go to the city to make more money than back home and then send it to their families. The dorms provide cheap housing so they can send money back home. If that's happening in the US, I don't see why that's reason for suspicion. If they are going out to tour the sites in the US, they probably do need help translating just like all those tour bus loads of Japanese back in the 1980s. It's not like the one's in China that make enough money on their own to travel as they wish. If these people are working for a Chinese company in the US, traveling, let alone to another country, may be something completely foreign to them and they need assitance.

Good Evening everyone, Troika & Assassinsmace expressed some good points. To elabaorate on my previous posting, In the port of Long Beach and Los Angeles, the terminals accomodate container ships, liquid bulk vessels, break bulk ships for non containerized cargo / roll on roll off vehicles, and solid bulk such as wheat, coal and other minerals. Most of the steamship lines servicing these ports maintain offices either at the facility or near the port if they share terminals with another line. The office personnel of these lines stationed in California are of course proficient in English in order to deal with day to day operations and customer relations. However, that requirement is not necessarily true for the multinational merchant sailors pulling into port. The senior ship officers and engineers would probably be multi-lingual, but the able bodied seaman, and engine room technicians /wipers may speak only their native language.
Container loading is very fast paced, depending upon the scheduled cargo volume & manifest for a particular containership, it will only take between 18 to 36 hours to load or unload a ship depending upon TEU.
With such a limited time in port, guided shore excursions are often provided to the crew by the steamship line so the crew can unwind after a long voyage. Hanjin Lines, Evergreen, K-line, ZIM, Cosco and other lines provide this service for their crews. Needless to say, a happy sailor is a productive sailor. On a similar note, during my many years of service in the Navy, I took full advantage of the guided tours (at a discounted cost to me) provided by the ships Morale Welfare and Recreation office. This included the tours in China when my old ship USS Blue Ridge was invited by the PLAN to visit Qingdao. We sure enjoyed the tour of the local area, and of course the Tsingtao beer brewery!!!!! mighty good beer if I do say so. We also had the oportunity to explore Qingdao on our own and were treated with great kindness by the local citizens.
Anyway back to the merchant marine. My own steamship line Matson Navigation in addition to service between the U.S. West Coast, Hawaii & Guam also provides China express service to Long Beach (Los Angeles)from Shanghai & Ningbo. Because our vessels are U.S. flagged with American crews who with a very few exceptions do not speak Chinese, we have our Shanghai office provide guided tours or assistance to our crews so they can relax for a few hours out in town before the voyage home.