China need a new geopolitical Doctrine ?

0Fox0 said:

It's not about money at this stage. It's about power. Here's the Wolfowitz Doctrine:

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It can be said that the Wolfowitz Doctrine was never abandoned, but that they just believed that China would become more liberal over time and would therefore be a reliable ally. Since no one believes that anymore, its back to aggression and containment.

SPOOPYSKELETON said:

It can be said that the Wolfowitz Doctrine was never abandoned, but that they just believed that China would become more liberal over time and would therefore be a reliable ally. Since no one believes that anymore, its back to aggression and containment.

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I wouldn’t say a reliable ally, if China was more liberal, it would be easier to manipulate and sow chaos when necessary. ROC was a case in point.

Mt1701d said:

I wouldn’t say a reliable ally, if China was more liberal, it would be easier to manipulate and sow chaos when necessary. ROC was a case in point.

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The idea was to build China up so later they can "harvest" it... hence when trade talks broke apart the American sentiment was "we made you, we can break you"

@0Fox0

Not gonna quote everything cus too long. Points:

1. First of all, what is China's overseas media budget? I don't know if it's billions. Can you post a source? Secondly, the goal is to bring overseas news to Chinese people for education but also influence Chinese people in China and overseas. The thread lightly part comes with the foreign countries. When you make news outlets to specifically target members of other countries, that's when you can run into big push back and need to consider your steps.

2. Your plans to imitate the US on continuous blame can only work in your own country where you control the media and you can make people rabid with hate if you want but when you try it in other countries, especially those friendly to the US, you will run into resistance and reaction. Everybody's got a plan till they get punched in the face and your plan really only works with no resistance. When countries react and freak out to the realization that their media is being infiltrated by the (Communist) Chinese, all your stuff in their country is defenseless all the same. China can't do the same things, like I said, because China does not have the traditional base of cooperation, reverence, and leadership over these countries that the US had built up over the decades after WWII (the base that it's wearing thin now). Without this solid foundation to stand on (not to mention other aspects such as Caucasians looking similar to each other with similar languages), your tactic cannot be the same. You will get push-back and be attacked for things that they need not worry about.

3. How would you punish sinophobia abroad when the host country rewards it?

4. I really don't know how to peacefully handle HK, but I have a feeling that by now, they just love and seek out any Western media and any Chinese media that tells them the truth, they just won't accept it. It's like a Trump supporter swearing that hydroxychloroquine will cure COVID-19 and showing him the scientific studies that debunk it only makes him madder and scream louder that it does work.

5. I said entertainment and studying/working in the West forges greater understanding of it, not greater love or affection. I know too well of Chinese becoming more patriotic when put in a setting where they are foreigners. But there is also a factor of "the grass is greener on the other side" and once you see it, you go back to "there's nowhere like home."

6. Regarding how foreigners are treated in China, it's really a cultural thing. In China, to honor your guest is to honor yourself. We believe that the more your guest feels happy at your place, it proves your power and generosity as a great host. Unfortunately, this is lost on Westerners and they believe that you put yourself beneath them even in your own home, so you must have no confidence about yourself. But it also depends on who the person is; a foreigner who visits China, NOT ALL, but most, likely has respect and affection for Chinese culture. It wouldn't be right to kick these people around on the street just because their more ignorant countrymen who would never come to China are sinophobic. Also, those who come to China are often (not all the time) people of means, and while they enjoy themselves in China, China benefits from what they can offer.

One thing I truly dislike is casting foreigners as models in commercials; that sends the wrong message and they gave nothing to China in return.

7. So as I mentioned, all your media outlets would be very vulnerable to attack. Why does China not attack back CIA outlets in HK? Not sure. Could have something to do with legality, but also, HKers know to seek out that outlet because they're brainwashed like that, so you can evict them from HK but HKers will still read their stuff that they post from the US. I'm just guessing; I wanted a much more heavy-handed and military response in HK but didn't get it...

8. China can create a reddit and see what happens. I don't use it but from what you say, it sounds to me like reddit is pro-West because the posters there are pro-West and you'll get drowned if you have an opposite view. So that sounds like it just happened like that and became a pro-Western hub. If China can create one, then it will be a pro-Chinese hub and there will be very little spillover between the 2 echo chambers. Nobody's going to be convinced of the other side's view. I don't see the point. And that's assuming that people get sufficiently attracted to use it at all.

9. You said that China isn't building soft power and I just gave you an article with an example of soft power being built. Yeah, Trump made it way easier, but you cannot say that China's competence didn't play a role too.

Jura said:

when I began to follow China-related nonmilitary threads five years ago, they were like BRICS BRICS BRICS

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What is your point? BRIC is just a western invented acronym for a western origin thesis on some developing economies. What has that go anything to do with this discussion?

manqiangrexue said:

... @0Fox0

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1. First of all, what is China's overseas media budget? I don't know if it's billions. Can you post a source?

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I don’t know how reliable this number is. The point is the budget is big.

The scale and range of China’s current annual investment in foreign-propaganda activities is so great that it would be impossible to come up with an accurate total budget. International reports have cited figures ranging from US$7 billion to $10 billion, but these numbers include only the subsidies given to media targeted at non-Chinese foreigners. The Chinese government funds propaganda activities in a variety of ways.

Secondly, the goal is to bring overseas news to Chinese people for education but also influence Chinese people in China and overseas.

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Source? Aren’t you moving goal posts? Why would they spent that much money convincing other Chinese people that they’re not Evil Inc ?

The thread lightly part comes with the foreign countries. When you make news outlets to specifically target members of other countries, that's when you can run into big push back and need to consider your steps.

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This is getting really weird. The USA and Europe fund and controls a giant global network of imperialist echo chamber inside countries they destroyed. Why aren’t they having problems? And btw, this includes inside of countries whose governments that they overthrew and/or instigated pogroms in eg Indonesia. Yet, they have no problem. I don’t believe the problems that you cite are even real let alone as great as you imagine them to be.

Here’s an example of how it’s done.

Your plans to imitate the US on continuous blame can only work in your own country where you control the media and you can make people rabid with hate

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You’re twisting my words. I’m skipping this one.

China does not have the traditional base of cooperation, reverence, and leadership over these countries that the US had built up over the decades after WWII

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Like America created this fantastic base of cooperation with mass murder in South Korea, Vietnam, Indonesia, Japan…lol It’s not values that allow Western propaganda to proliferate in these circles…

How would you punish sinophobia abroad when the host country rewards it?

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Ideally, they would use those nation's laws against them and make an international stink to ruin their image. If not, then there's this...

Look at China’s recent retaliation against Australia’s economy. What if the Chinese government simply gave its citizens a wake up call about how degrading Hollywood is towards Chinese people? Woopps. There goes several billion in sales and hundreds of millions of minds being influenced. How about informing them how common violent crimes are common against them? Kiss several billion in tourist $ good bye. How that celebrity they think is so cool actually hates their race? No more popularity. The CEO of that Euro car thinks you eat bats? Etc Very simple things here.

I really don't know how to peacefully handle HK

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This is a non-answer. The problem was the indoctrination that was allowed under China’s watch. I don’t know if they had some great reason for this. I highly doubt it. The lesson is to stop Western infiltration from the start. Once it reaches a critical mass, it’s over because of the useful idiots repeating the same garbage to each other to create an echo chamber of agreement.

I still do not see China doing that. Currently, there’s this feminist, Leta Hong Fincher, who is very likely trying to sow a gender division in China. In case you think this is “no big deal”, just understand that Asian men and women hate each other in the West as a result of decades of divide and rule psywar against them. The same was done to destroy African American unity. The CIA agent was Gloria Steinem who posed as a feminist and started pushing the “I don’t need no Black man” meme. These ideas sound retarded but they’re extraordinarily dangerous and effective.

The type of vigilance I’d like to see is how the West treats Confucius Institutes. It doesn’t matter if they’re lying. They have effectively killed their image and influence. That’s how top tier psywarfare is played out. Assault your foe’s minds relentlessly while denying them any influence.

6. Regarding how foreigners are treated in China, it's really a cultural thing. In China, to honor your guest is to honor yourself.

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Well, it’s time to change this policy. It’s obviously not working. Don’t give me that “not all white people” excuse. It’s the vast majority. Even other failed western migrants in China freely admit this.

China essentially overpays for whatever benefit they get. It may have made sense a long time ago when the knowledge gap was big, but now?

Also, those who come to China are often (not all the time) people of means, and while they enjoy themselves in China, China benefits from what they can offer.

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Such as?

7. So as I mentioned, all your media outlets would be very vulnerable to attack. Why does China not attack back CIA outlets in HK? Not sure. Could have something to do with legality

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Excuses. If it’s illegal then use loopholes or something. You think the CIA cares about legalities when they’re inciting armed terrorism in Xinjiang or HK?

8. China can create a reddit and see what happens. I don't use it but from what you say, it sounds to me like reddit is pro-West because the posters there are pro-West and you'll get drowned if you have an opposite view. So that sounds like it just happened like that and became a pro-Western hub. If China can create one, then it will be a pro-Chinese hub and there will be very little spillover between the 2 echo chambers. Nobody's going to be convinced of the other side's view. I don't see the point. And that's assuming that people get sufficiently attracted to use it at all.

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Yes, creating this requires nuance but it’s not that hard. Review the Overton Window if you haven’t already. The key is to lure them with a large enough Overton Window and perceived credibility. The value in controlling the platform is not to spew pro-Chinese views all day, but to nudge/adjust perceptions. Things that get outright censored on reddit would be viewable on this alternative platform. Posts and comments that are vote manipulated to the top would not be so easy to manipulate on this alternative platform, etc. The way to win in this game is subtlety. You keep imagining ham-fisted shouting matches, which is not the goal.

9. You said that China isn't building soft power and I just gave you an article with an example of soft power being built. Yeah, Trump made it way easier, but you cannot say that China's competence didn't play a role too.

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I reviewed the so-called win. No, that was seriously all Trump and some Chinese financial muscle. This win has nothing to do with soft factors and everything to do with hard competence. You could force the case and call this soft power but it’s reaching. That guy stole PPE from allies and was caught lying all the time. China can’t take credit for that. Just think how awful the image of China is in their heads that even with the crazy president, Donald Trump, China and America are head to head.

Included for reference…

Europe is abandoning Trump on the world stage as it turns away from the US toward China

Recent polling suggests Europeans are turning away from the US under President Donald Trump's leadership.

Public opinion toward America has declined in major European countries since the start of the coronavirus pandemic.

Seventy-six percent of Germans in a new poll said their view of America had deteriorated because of the crisis.

Roughly equal numbers of Germans in the poll favored maintaining close relationships with China and the US in a head-to-head matchup.

One poll last week found that just 2% of French people trusted Trump to provide world leadership.

China is exerting growing political, diplomatic, and financial power across Europe.

Hawk and hawkier. No group in charge of a country can play against such organised effort perfectly. So let's keep that in mind. Also keep in mind where China was even back in the 80s, no position to shake the boat and honestly there wasn't much need back then either since the western elites have planned for the entire of China to remain subservient manufacturing slaves for perpetuity, at no advantage to itself.

China's internal propaganda machine is doing wonders for itself and general "Han" unity at least (21st century "Han") minus some kerfuffles in Xinjiang and Tibet, only thanks to the efforts of the usual suspects. Some Chinese equivalent of Reddit for political cohesiveness and to create a Chinese echo chamber to match the western ones have already been implemented LONG ago. Arguably as successfully as the western ones particularly now that Chinese and Asians as a matter of fact are realising exactly what positions they truly hold. Some die-hard liberal, token asian in a white "supportive" crowd individuals will find their acceptance reversed the moment they even begin to vocalise some disdain for liberal beliefs. These entire groups of people and anyone holding liberal attitudes are a total lost cause for China at least.

Propaganda is almost a wasted effort because engaging in this conflict now would be like thinking you can win a marathon even by starting late and 20 laps behind. What the CCP has been doing for the last 30 odd years at least has been asymmetric warfare conducted with lessons carried over from the Soviet vs Western axis way of war. We know the old tricks the devil plays and how the Soviets faltered (economic interests vis a vis military). However despite all this it has recently become clear how oddly unprepared the CCP seemingly is. Perhaps it's a simple matter of the axis upping its game and totally throwing its entire weight now.

China's geopolitical doctrine is rather cunning if you can appreciate it. It has managed to disguise its intentions of gaining influence and independence for as long as possible. It's already shifting its doctrine but maybe can adapt better? This is relatively new ground for Chinese leaders and academics of this field. It's the western elite's well practiced home ground battlefield. Reaching this stage at all is commendable already. Even Japan got nipped in the bud (sorry no awful derogatory remark or pun intended at all) and most developing nations are nowhere even close to gaining true influence or independence from western diktat. Even India has failed to wield its population to its favour like China has and so is barely along on its journey towards regaining the former glory of its region (Princely states and Mughal empire).

What China struggles against is an invisible enemy. Some identify it as the US, others the old European elites. Who's to say? Both of you just have conjecture but yes, it surely resides and dictates the policy of their nations like a parasite.

Yes, and name it "Liberating the world from Predatory Western World Order" Strategy.

hullopilllw said:

Yes, and name it "Liberating the world from Predatory Western World Order" Strategy.

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Or how about the "deterring and if necessary defeating overt and overt US aggression around the world is the cornerstone of global peace and stability" strategy?

Whichever country runs a relatively more inclusive and inspirational ship that is also tight enough for opportunity for material wealth and scientific advancement will win hearts and minds. Strengthening weakest links is the bottom line while the top line needs to demonstrate as much magnanimity as accomplishment.