China miliary plane design

I have though of this for a long time. It seems that China does not have a complete military plane designed by itself. What China is doing is copying and reengineering.
All of its military planes in service are copied or reengineered. J-6 is based on MIG-19, J-7 is based on MIG-21, J-8 is enlarged from MIG-21 and copied something from MIG-23 and SU-7. J-10 is originally based on Isreal design. China claimed that it has complete intelligent property on FC-1, but FC-1 was developed from Super-7 and the later was based on MIG-21.
It seems to me that only JH-7 and K-8 trainer were designed by China completely.
Does China really has its design ability?

wmdco said:

I have though of this for a long time. It seems that China does not have a complete military plane designed by itself. What China is doing is copying and reengineering.
All of its military planes in service are copied or reengineered. J-6 is based on MIG-19, J-7 is based on MIG-21, J-8 is enlarged from MIG-21 and copied something from MIG-23 and SU-7. J-10 is originally based on Isreal design. China claimed that it has complete intelligent property on FC-1, but FC-1 was developed from Super-7 and the later was based on MIG-21.
It seems to me that only JH-7 and K-8 trainer were designed by China completely.
Does China really has its design ability?

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Sure, but why reinvent the wheel? Taiwan's IDF, and Korea's KAI T-50 Golden Eagle both borrow design concepts from the F-16 as well. You could also say that the K-8 borrowed some concepts from the BAe Hawk.

If you look at aircraft like Q-5 and J-8-II, China was capable of major re-engineering of aircraft frame decades ago. However I think engine development has lagged behind. For example FC-1 and J-10 airframe are both built in China, but flying with imported Russian engines (RD-93 & AL-31FN).

The JH-7's airframe may be a "Chinese product", but again, the engine is either imported (from UK) or license-copies from RR-Spey.

There are some rumors that the newer J-10A will use domestically-made WS-10A engine. Let's wait and see on that...

Does China really has its design ability?

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Well hate to break your anti-chinese illusions, but J-10 and FC-1 are indegenious designs. J-10 orgins goes back to the eighties when China decided to go for new design instead continuing the somewhat outdated-from-the-start J-9. It's true that Israelians were consulted during those days, but those were merely just, well consultions and perhaps some experiences from lavi development was given to chinese. The planes (J-10 and Lavi) are only similar in overall airframe concept but so are for example MiG-25 and F-15...does it mean that Eagle is based on Foxbat?? The biggest difference between Lavi and J-10 is the size, the first belong to the lightweight cathegory (like Gripen, Novi Avion, LCA and FC.1) with 90 KN engines where as J-10 belogns to the midweight cathegory (F-16, Eurofighter) with 120 KN engines...

Super-7 was continious development of MiG-21 (J-7) but FC-1 is similar offspring of that as J-10 where form the J-9. It's totally new design.

But if you want to draw those conclusions form chinese planes, you can do it with almoust every single other warplanes in service now or in the past. All desings usually bears some parts of already prooven concepts as it's the unofficical law of all engineering that maxium percentage of totally new innovations per equipment is 25 % othervice it will fail. Following your logic F/A-18 is just F-5 with new gizmoes...

I smell fire in your post...you are deliberatlyu trying to make a flamefight, but I can assure you...not on my watch:nono: :nono:

On top of what Golly said, I'd like to add a little bit on J-10. The J-10 design was actually selected for China's new 3rd generation plane as early as 1986. The Israelis did not join until 1987 and then they left the project in 1995. There is no question that the Israelis provided valuable help to the J-10 project, but J-10 would've continued even if the Israelis were not involved. It would've probably just took 5 years longer for China to develop it.

tphuang said:

On top of what Golly said, I'd like to add a little bit on J-10. The J-10 design was actually selected for China's new 3rd generation plane as early as 1986. The Israelis did not join until 1987 and then they left the project in 1995. There is no question that the Israelis provided valuable help to the J-10 project, but J-10 would've continued even if the Israelis were not involved. It would've probably just took 5 years longer for China to develop it.

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I'm not so sure that the Israeli's provided that much "assistance"for the J-10 project. From what I understood, it was merely basic consultation. There may be some similarities to Israeli designs, but they are not identical. J-10 is totally a Chinese indigineous project. No doubt. But like adeptitus said, there may have been an initial approach to not re-inventing the wheel.

I agree with some of the other points though in regards to technological absorption in Chinese fighter manufacturing. But also, I don't see any Mig-23 influence in J-8. Maybe some Mig-21 influence, but still J-8 and Mig-21 are different in many aspects also.

It's hard not to dismiss the idea that Israeli provided a major amount of input in the J10 project because the J10 and Lavi look too similiar. Early versions of the J10 looked almost identical to the Lavi so it is clear that the Lavi had huge input to the project. Later on, the Chinese changed their specifications and enlarged the J10 to what it is today.

I don't think the original poster is entirely wrong to ask such a question.

Until recently, China was not capable of producing a truly indigenous plane from the ground up. They always based their planes on a foreign design, and improved it.

But there should be no doubt that today, China is capable of 100% indigenous designs.

Similarity does not gurantee Israeli's actual contribution to J10. China dissasembled F16 years before Israeli provided Lavi's info. J10 from start was a modified F16 shape with canard. And Lavi is a F16 with canard. Actually it's pretty hard to make them look quite different.

The true story is much more twisted, some people may still remember J10 was "cancelled" 3 times in the 80 and 90s. Lavi version was one of the cancellation. Any way, I am day dreaming.

China dissasembled F16 years before Israeli provided Lavi's info.

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Could you elaborate a bit on this?

Yes, I said china disassembled F16 in the 80s.

I would be extremly surprised if US does not know that.

"My version" of J10's history is, it was originated from the failed J9 project, plus what china learned about F16's outside and what they liked about F15's inside, then added some what they learned from Europeans and Israle. And finally with Russian's engine, it's flying.

It's true that J10 is not a complete chinese design. Also, I can almost gurantee you that the next generation of China's fighter will look like F22 and F35's twin brothers. They will still be copying for quite a while. They have given up creativity to Indians, because they admit that they have not learned enough yet. They had many wild high flying designs and ideas in the 60s and 70s. Now they are down to earth.

zyun8288, what exactly do you mean by "disassembled"?
Did China have access to an F-16? If so when and who provided the F-16?
Did they conduct test flights with it?

plus what china learned about F16's outside and what they liked about F15's inside

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Give us more details about how they got acess to the "F-15 inside".