"China is the biggest espionage threat to the US"
- Thread starter Blob
- Start date
Seacraft
New Member
Arranging for undercover "arms dealers" to ship an F16 engine to China is not "learning". Doing R&D in a lab is learning. Taking that knowledge back to China or wherever spreads the knowledge (and hopefully some other things not open to discussion here).
To social network the source code for the Navy's battle management software is not learning, it is theft, as much as pirating movies is theft. The US has "stolen" technology from other countries but by our nature, we have had significantly more stolen from us. As far as Germany that was to the victor go the spoils, and I genuinely like the German people, but they shouldn't have bombed Pearl Harbor.
Trying to steal - as in theft - an engine for a F16, a whole friekin' Blackhawk, AMRAAMs, the Navy's electric propulsion system, and any plans, simulations, and blueprints not nailed down is not learning. I'm not saying that Americans are all pure in these endeavors and certainly I think Coprorate America is selling more than just Americans down the river (yet I would live in no different society), but theft is theft.
This site has tought me a LOT about people from other cultures, truly the greatest asset of this community is the community itself and the passions that bind us. However, theft is theft is theft.
To social network the source code for the Navy's battle management software is not learning, it is theft, as much as pirating movies is theft. The US has "stolen" technology from other countries but by our nature, we have had significantly more stolen from us. As far as Germany that was to the victor go the spoils, and I genuinely like the German people, but they shouldn't have bombed Pearl Harbor.
Trying to steal - as in theft - an engine for a F16, a whole friekin' Blackhawk, AMRAAMs, the Navy's electric propulsion system, and any plans, simulations, and blueprints not nailed down is not learning. I'm not saying that Americans are all pure in these endeavors and certainly I think Coprorate America is selling more than just Americans down the river (yet I would live in no different society), but theft is theft.
This site has tought me a LOT about people from other cultures, truly the greatest asset of this community is the community itself and the passions that bind us. However, theft is theft is theft.
* On the Rolls Royce RB.41 Nene jet engine, the Soviet Union requested them in 1946 from Briton. There's some dispute on actual numbers, some say RR exported 40 units, other say UK government gave away 25 engines.
The Soviets reverse engineered it as the Kilmov RD-45, then later built a larger, improved version called Kilmov VK-1.
In 1958, Whitney Willard Straight, then deputy chairman of Rolls Royce, visited China and examined the MiG-15s, to find that tehy were using reverse-engineered RB.41 engines. When he returned to UK, he instructed RR to file a lawsuit against the Soviet Government for £207 million, which was unpaid.
The Soviets claim that although the VK-1 used designs derived from the RB.41, it incorporated many domestic developments and improvements, and therefore was not a copy of RB.41, thus they were not obliged to pay anything. The VK-1F, for example, had a larger, redesigned combustion chamber, larger turbine, revised airflow, and afterburner. All these features differ from the RB.41.
* On the F-16 & Blackhawk engine incident, Bill Ko-Suen Moo is guilty of illegal purchase, attempt to export without license, and acting as an agent for foreign government without registration. He is, however, not guilty of theft:
China's espionage operations are not like the traditional western ideal of secret agents sneaking into some research facility and walking out with a CDROM. They use a method that has been described as "shotgun" or "sponge". The reason for this is because they're interested in the actual manufacturing technology from the ground up, instead of just the design on some floppy disc. All this make more sense if you consider Deng's modernization priorities.
The "danger" presented to foreign countries in this scenario is not bullets or missiles. It's about the PRC obtaining the manufacturing capability to produce the same item for export at 1/3rd the cost. In the long run, it turns PRC into a manufacturing power house, and previous-manufacturing nations into suppliers of raw materials. That is, imagine in 2020, China export aircraft engines and dress shirts to the US, while the US export raw ore and cotton to China.
To prevent that from happening, it's in their self-interest to pull on China's leg. Think of it as 2 guys going after the same girl, there's nothing fair about "fair play". Just as the FBI will target ethnic Chinese in racial profiling in attempt to find any evidence of espionage, the PRC will continue to purchase/import technology from abroad by whatever the means. What does that mean for us? If you're an ethnic Chinese/Taiwanese living in the US, you're a target for both PRC intelligence gathering efforts, and FBI racial profiling. I'd advice against working in "sensitive" positions like, say, nuclear weapons lab at Los Alamitos. And if you're already working in such a position, to be extra careful.
The Soviets reverse engineered it as the Kilmov RD-45, then later built a larger, improved version called Kilmov VK-1.
In 1958, Whitney Willard Straight, then deputy chairman of Rolls Royce, visited China and examined the MiG-15s, to find that tehy were using reverse-engineered RB.41 engines. When he returned to UK, he instructed RR to file a lawsuit against the Soviet Government for £207 million, which was unpaid.
The Soviets claim that although the VK-1 used designs derived from the RB.41, it incorporated many domestic developments and improvements, and therefore was not a copy of RB.41, thus they were not obliged to pay anything. The VK-1F, for example, had a larger, redesigned combustion chamber, larger turbine, revised airflow, and afterburner. All these features differ from the RB.41.
* On the F-16 & Blackhawk engine incident, Bill Ko-Suen Moo is guilty of illegal purchase, attempt to export without license, and acting as an agent for foreign government without registration. He is, however, not guilty of theft:
China's espionage operations are not like the traditional western ideal of secret agents sneaking into some research facility and walking out with a CDROM. They use a method that has been described as "shotgun" or "sponge". The reason for this is because they're interested in the actual manufacturing technology from the ground up, instead of just the design on some floppy disc. All this make more sense if you consider Deng's modernization priorities.
The "danger" presented to foreign countries in this scenario is not bullets or missiles. It's about the PRC obtaining the manufacturing capability to produce the same item for export at 1/3rd the cost. In the long run, it turns PRC into a manufacturing power house, and previous-manufacturing nations into suppliers of raw materials. That is, imagine in 2020, China export aircraft engines and dress shirts to the US, while the US export raw ore and cotton to China.
To prevent that from happening, it's in their self-interest to pull on China's leg. Think of it as 2 guys going after the same girl, there's nothing fair about "fair play". Just as the FBI will target ethnic Chinese in racial profiling in attempt to find any evidence of espionage, the PRC will continue to purchase/import technology from abroad by whatever the means. What does that mean for us? If you're an ethnic Chinese/Taiwanese living in the US, you're a target for both PRC intelligence gathering efforts, and FBI racial profiling. I'd advice against working in "sensitive" positions like, say, nuclear weapons lab at Los Alamitos. And if you're already working in such a position, to be extra careful.
Last edited:
Seacraft
New Member
Blob said:
Sorry :rofl: - Sometimes I also forget the International flavor of this board. Some of you may recognize that as the line of John Belushi in an American film of the early 1980s. A grungy comic classic of sorts... Obviously, it was not true...
Yes, in the legal definition of his actions, it is not "theft". However he is trying to arrange the illegal sale or procurement of these items and transfer them to an organization not authorized to obtain them. So while initially he did not partake in a theft, he attempted to organize the theft, also a crime, and was found guilty of this.
When you get down to the bottom of it the PRC is encouraging the obtaining, through illegal means, various systems and subsystems developed by other people and not for the PRC's use. This is a theft, a theft of intellectual property or technology, a theft of US government property. And as a taxpayer in the US, I am fervently against the illegal transfer of anything to the PRC (or any others). As an American (I must add a not enamored with the current administration American) I am more than fervently against anything "stolen" from the US and potentially used against the US or our allies (or pretty much anyone for that matter). Especially used against "Our Guys" if they venture into harm's way.
This is not a bash against the PRC. The Soviet Union frequently used methods and co-opted people to spy and steal for them. I'm willing to bet the US has done it too and when those were caught, sadly they paid the price.
I look forward to a time in the future where technologies could be shared amongst peoples and used for good. Look at Open Source Software - world community driven software at free or pennies on the dollar - for the benefit of all or most of mankind. I would like to see technology advance in the same way, provided it is done in an "open source" fashion for the benefit of mankind. But what is the difference between breaking into a neighbor's house stealing a weapon on a local scale and encouraging the theft of military and dual use technologies on a national scale? Still theft.