China helping Iran to upgrade F-4 Phantoms

Re: China helping iran to upgrade F-4 aircraft

thunderchief said:

First , there is UN mandated arms embargo :

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Second , China could not sell J-10s or J-11s without Russia supplying engines .

Third , Iran would need at least 500 modern airplanes with weapons , top notch trained pilots and good SAM coverage to deter US & Israel . Obviously , they could not afford that - instead they opted for ballistic missiles and possibly nukes as more achievable option .

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Should they have wished to do so, they could have set up a domestic production line of WS-13 or even WS-10A. But again, embargo...

Re: China helping iran to upgrade F-4 aircraft

to deter israel or US, you need more than just 4th gen plane, the entire structure need to upgraded

Re: China helping iran to upgrade F-4 aircraft

SinoSoldier said:

Why did China sign that embargo? It was a perfect opportunity for them to sell weapons such as J-10A, JF-17, L-15, C-8XX series AShM, MRL rockets, and LOADS of other things as well.

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China tends to stay away from ME affairs and doesn't regard that region as vital interest of China (this may change because of oil) . Sometimes supports Russia because of strategic reasons , but mostly abstains on UN SC resolutions . Main question is why did Russia support resolution . I guess they also didn't want nuclear Iran . Also , they were (and still are) too weak to go head-to-head against West .

SinoSoldier said:

Should they have wished to do so, they could have set up a domestic production line of WS-13 or even WS-10A. But again, embargo...

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Neither WS-13 nor WS-10 were operational at this time . Also , WS-13 is destined for Pakistan , which is not exactly in friendly terms with Iran (Iran is Shia , Pakistan is Sunni and also client of US and S.Arabia ) .

Re: China helping iran to upgrade F-4 aircraft

s002wjh said:

to deter israel or US, you need more than just 4th gen plane, the entire structure need to upgraded

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Iran's deterrent to Israel/US currently is it's Ballistic Missile forces and some capability through Naval & Coastal systems to disrupt oil production and shipment.

The Iranian Air Force is more of a counter to local threats and attempts at a limited or targeted strike. Still, J-10A's operated by Iran would be a powerful asset toward their local air defence. Israel & the US do not have nearly as much experience jamming modern Chinese systems as they do the older / downgraded Russian export systems that tend to sell into the Middle East.

The irony of all these conflicts and threats of conflict is that a form of Nuclear Proliferation is assured. It has been proven as the only asset to truly keep a Sovereign Country safe from outside attack.

Cheers,
Zool

Re: China helping iran to upgrade F-4 aircraft

(dup post)

Re: China helping iran to upgrade F-4 aircraft

I did a little research and it seems that this was first reported in Dec 2012, published in Jan 2013 issue of Combat Aircraft Monthly, in an article titled "The Last Sharpshooters":

"A "Sharpshooter" from 101st Tactical Fighter Squadron in 10th Tactical Fighter Base "Konarak", takes-off from Mehrabad International Airport at Tehran after undergoing the first phase of the "Dowran" upgrade program, aimed at fully modernizing the F-4Es and F-4Ds fleet of IRIAF. The modernization programme includes: multi-functional displays (MFDs) in both front and rear cockpits to present engine instruments, armament system status, and other data.Another MFD is mounted on the left instrument panel to show flight management system (FMS)data and a moving map integrated with GPS. The radar is replaced by a new Chinese system of unknown specifications. A new,domestic-built UHF/VHF radio system is also fitted. A Chinese-built head-up display, and changes to the weapons system for the use of new Chinese PL-7 infra-red air-to-air missiles and advanced PL-12 AA active-radar missiles. A Chinese radar warning receiver and two Iranian made chaff/flare dispensers have been installed also."


In this world there are many countries that only import weapon systems and never achieving any degree of domestic manufacturing of those systems. Regardless of how some might like to make fun of Iran's attempts at making fighter planes, attack helicopters, and weapon systems, we should not forget that they at least have the technical capability to make them, much like South Africa under the arms embargo. Just as SA could produce the Atlas Cheetah, the Iranians can product Azarakhsh & Saeqeh. Though the Denel Rooivalk is probably much better than the Shahed 285...

Re: China helping iran to upgrade F-4 aircraft

thunderchief said:

Neither WS-13 nor WS-10 were operational at this time . Also , WS-13 is destined for Pakistan , which is not exactly in friendly terms with Iran (Iran is Shia , Pakistan is Sunni and also client of US and S.Arabia ) .

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Er... WS-10 is operational... has been operational for quite some time and lots of J-11 are equipped with it. You can argued that they have problems or are not as effective but that is another story altogether.

However, at this moment not many or operational J-10 are equipped with WS-10 for multiple reasons... but not because of WS-10 not being operational. One of the main reason I don't see WS-10 being exported is because... so far aircrafts that are being exported from China are mainly in the forms of J-7 (F-7), Q-5 (A-5) and FC-1, J-10 was not being exported, J-11 was not being exported and so there really is no need for this type of engine to be exported. Secondly, not sure if China could build enough for exports as of now (for that particular engine).

Re: China helping iran to upgrade F-4 aircraft

rhino123 said:

Er... WS-10 is operational... has been operational for quite some time and lots of J-11 are equipped with it. You can argued that they have problems or are not as effective but that is another story altogether.

However, at this moment not many or operational J-10 are equipped with WS-10 for multiple reasons... but not because of WS-10 not being operational. One of the main reason I don't see WS-10 being exported is because... so far aircrafts that are being exported from China are mainly in the forms of J-7 (F-7), Q-5 (A-5) and FC-1, J-10 was not being exported, J-11 was not being exported and so there really is no need for this type of engine to be exported. Secondly, not sure if China could build enough for exports as of now (for that particular engine).

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Another possible reason J-10s don't use WS-10 engines is because they're NFG.

SinoSoldier said:

Why did China sign that embargo? It was a perfect opportunity for them to sell weapons such as J-10A, JF-17, L-15, C-8XX series AShM, MRL rockets, and LOADS of other things as well.

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Because that embargo is regarded as a top interest by the United States, while selling weapons to Iran is only of secondary interest for China. Chinese foreign policy since 1979 has consistently been based on not leading any charges against the US on issues that are of only secondary interest to China herself.

Iran should know very well that Chinese support for Iran is conditioned upon maintenance of cordial Chinese relation with the US, and Iran should not expect China to actually deliver anything that would genuinely reduce American leverage over Iran. In the past China has more than once reneged on contracts with Iran that irritated the US but didn't violate any international agreement or UN embargos. Now that China is emboiled in severe territorial dispute with its neigbors that look to the US for support, American leverage over Chinese policy vs Iran is greater than ever.

If America uses her leverage astutely she could obtain a whole range of Chinese concessions in a variety of international affairs in return for leaning on her allies to dial down the temperature of the territorial disputes in East and South China sea.

Re: China helping iran to upgrade F-4 aircraft

rhino123 said:

Er... WS-10 is operational... has been operational for quite some time and lots of J-11 are equipped with it. You can argued that they have problems or are not as effective but that is another story altogether.

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WS-10 is not fully operational even now , and we are talking about time before 2010.