China Flanker Thread III (land based, exclude J-15)

Tomboy

Captain
Registered Member
I dont think even fanboys ever made claims that China can get to 9 carriers by 2035. This came out of the blue in the DOD report.

Which kinda makes it credible since there is no trail of fans being over optimistic about China's carrier production plans like this.

DOD report could have intelligence that pla fans do not have.
Public DoD reports are written by a bunch of interns fresh out of college to please the public, what it says is basically no better than any of those crazy twitter theories.

No doubt there are actual competent people at the DoD who writes actual useful reports but those are all highly classified for obvious reason.
 

Neurosmith

Junior Member
Registered Member
The alleged conclusion of J-16 production is somewhat surprising, even in the context of increased J-35 and J-15T/DT manufacturing. The J-35 and J-20A are not exactly 1-to-1 replacements for the J-16 since they are not expected to carry heavy A2G weaponry. The J-16 remains the only PLAAF asset capable of high-capacity A2G strikes whilst retaining a high level of A2A capability. The current fleet of 450 or so J-16s still falls short of the F-15E/EX fleet in raw numbers and would likely be the backbone air platform in a high-intensity conflict.

I guess that, while production might have paused, the capability and tooling for a potential production restart would be retained.
 

Tomboy

Captain
Registered Member
The alleged conclusion of J-16 production is somewhat surprising, even in the context of increased J-35 and J-15T/DT manufacturing. The J-35 and J-20A are not exactly 1-to-1 replacements for the J-16 since they are not expected to carry heavy A2G weaponry. The J-16 remains the only PLAAF asset capable of high-capacity A2G strikes whilst retaining a high level of A2A capability. The current fleet of 450 or so J-16s still falls short of the F-15E/EX fleet in raw numbers and would likely be the backbone air platform in a high-intensity conflict.

I guess that, while production might have paused, the capability and tooling for a potential production restart would be retained.
I don't know where you are reading USAF numbers, but they only have ~220 F-15Es left and they are likely to further decrease as these airframes gets older. F-15EX production is hitting roadblocks and even then, they only ordered 129 anyways.
 

Blitzo

General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
The current fleet of 450 or so J-16s still falls short of the F-15E/EX fleet in raw numbers and would likely be the backbone air platform in a high-intensity conflict.

I don't want this thread to become a fleet on fleet comparison of how many aircraft each air force "needs" -- but I assume you are comparing the PLAAF with USAF in terms of numbers. If so, it's just patently untrue (and if you're comparing with total F-15E/EX family production including non-US export customers then it just doesn't even make sense).

There are original 218 F-15E still in service with the USAF, and about a dozen F-15EX in service of about 129 planned (likely to finish delivery around 2030).
Original F-15Es will probably soldier on a bit longer until the late 2030s, but even the total count of 218 F-15Es and 129 F-15EX is still only 347 airframes. They could boost that by ordering more F-15EXs faster, but that point itself is incorrect.


This is leaving aside the wisdom of comparing upgraded F-15Es with J-16s etc.


I don’t think it is valid to equate F-15E and F-15EX. The latter is a 4.5th gen fighter from the get go while the former is merely upgraded. If we’ve learned anything from the Taiwan F-16 upgrades it is that a lot of corner could be cut during the upgrade process.

Well, more important is that the original statement was just incorrect anyway.
 

tphuang

General
Staff member
Super Moderator
VIP Professional
Registered Member
I don't think they need to produce more vanilla J-16. I'm not sure what the right number for J-16D is, but I'm sure PLAAF has a good idea on this. At some point, I do wonder if they will have an EW version of J-20S. I would imagine the cooling & plumbing on J-20S would support a more powerful system than J-16 platform.

Given the size of expanding J-20 and J-35 fleet, Having around 450 J-16s in the fleet is a good number for the various bomb truck type of roles that it can perform pretty well up for another 15 years at least. Its electronics platform is good enough to be relevant and hard-ish to track for a while. At some point, they will need to retire all other flankers. J-11BGs will probably stay in the Air Force for another 5 years at least, but should start retiring at that point. All the other earlier flankers will hopefully be retired over the next few years.
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
If J16 production had really concluded, then it is indeed the end of an era, and it makes sense.

While the J16 is still fully competitive today as a multirole fighter able be to go head to head against anything other then 5th gens, the reality is that with China now on the cusp of entering the 6th gen era, the venerable Flanker just doesn’t cut it any more.

And this would just be the winding up of production, not retirement of the type, so the J16 will continue to be around for decades to come, so no need to be too glum about it.

With nearly 500 J16 already produced thus far, that’s a fleet bigger than most air forces, and there are more than enough planes already produced for China’s needs in all but the most extreme of fringe nightmare scenarios.

The existing J16 fleet will continue to be the backbone of the PLA’s tactical strike fleet, and will be supplemented by GJ21s and other unmanned stealthy striker drones, which will be the ultimate long term replacement for the J16’s role in the PLA. And in those fringe nightmare scenarios I mentioned before, drones would be a far more important asset to be in peak production stages as that’s the kind of asset you can really surge production and scale up frontline numbers without running into the core bottleneck of manned platforms or pilots.
 

00CuriousObserver

Senior Member
Registered Member
When I shared the rumour, I had intended for it to be a piece of support for J-35/A's expanded production. The weight of this info should be taken more lightly, though of course it is fair to consider its possibility as discussion

See here:

However, I think we should go over the credibility of the individual again. I had briefly talked about it here:

The person worth paying attention to isn’t the channel owner, but 约克, who made the claim.

约克 works within China’s MIC and has access to some inside information. However, there’s a fundamental difference between the two podcasts. Guancha is a news outlet, and the guys are professional reporters. In contrast, the other podcast is more of a personal show with some enthusiasts. It’s more like friends chatting about military stuff over a beer after work. Naturally, the standards and credibility between the two are very different.


I think he certainly does have info, but we should be cautious when evaluating what he says. We don’t know how many hands the info has passed through, or the specific context under which those statements were made from his sources .

Moreover, recently he's made a lot more of the specific remarks that we look for:
  • China’s aircraft carriers have already been planned up to the sixth ship
  • GJ-11 exported to the UAE
  • The “Water Molecule” designation is gone now
  • J-16 is no longer in production, only J-16Ds
  • He was also the one who claimed that the yearly production of Y-20 is now ~50 (I vaguely remember him saying something like this, but I can't find the exact quote)
I don’t think his credibility (more so because he hasn't been as proven as the others) is strong enough to fully support all these claims yet. Still, they’re worth keeping an eye on. Rather than taking everything wholly, we should treat them as shifts in our expectations. For example, instead of assuming J-16 production has ended, the rate might be even lower than we expected. The J-10CE sales might not be in the three digits but higher than we previously thought. And even if only of these rumours is confirmed, the information still has value, particularly if it carriers greater weight like a GJ-11 UAE export.
 
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