China Flanker Thread II

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pmc

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this by structural weight related to aero structure. titanium also increases with composite. seem like 50-20 ratio composite-titanium.

my theory is that 5G fighter with most of fuel/weopons internally or near fueselage can have more composites and fighters with big pods with undistributed weopons on wings will have titanium.
EA-18G that designed for pods all the time is15 tons and its first flight was 10 years after F-18E. so practically no progress in weight reduction rather weight increased.

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Tirdent

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Nothing mysterious about that, titanium + CFRP is a favourable material pairing from a corrosion point of view.

I suggest we return to the actual topic, though.
 

Blitzo

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Exactly right - I was merely pointing out that the corollary is that this may not reflect accurately on its performance relative to the Su-35s *operated by* Russia. And explained that this isn't a wholly academic possibility, because there are some concrete reasons why the Su-35 ESM/ECM suite might have certain advantages (e.g. band coverage due to array sizes).

It's all speculation, but Bronk confidently makes far-reaching assertions in that video that he cannot have researched very deeply, as then he would have encountered the very caveats we are discussing here.

I fully agree with you there (bolded).
He, and some other people that receive information from our English translated PLA watching efforts, often end up publishing or pronouncing them in a way that is either too confident or lacks nuance, or both.

But simultaneously, I think you are interpreting the possibility of J-16 having a more capable ESM/ECM suite than Russian operated Su-35s, a bit strongly if I could be so bold.
It's very possible that the PLA's Su-35s have downgraded ESM/ECM suites -- but if their Su-35s had the same ESM/ECM suite as VKS Su-35s, would the rating given by Yankee be so difficult to entertain? 8.5/10 and 8/10 relative to J-16 doesn't mean the Su-35's ESM/ECM suite is "bad," just that J-16's is slightly better, which to me sounds very eminently plausible given the respective era in which each aircraft was developed and their relevant avionics/electronics/RF industries of the time.
By that same token, I also very much can entertain the idea that the PLA's Su-35s have downgraded ESM/ECM suites and that maybe VKS Su-35s have ESM/ECM suites that are equal or slightly better than that of J-16 -- it all seems plausible to me.



And here too, stated like that, I have no problems with it. Yet again, that is NOT the argument Justin Bronk makes - he seems to unquestioningly buy into the rumours that claim composite application to an extent that saves several hundred kilograms. The photographic evidence strongly suggests this is not the case, which doesn't mean SAC didn't make a few conservative improvements by replacing a few metal panels here and there.

Even the basic Su-27 has CFRP h-stab actuator fairings - but those are parts which, at a reasonable guess, weigh less than 5kg total. On a 16 ton airframe, even increasing that by 20 times isn't really worth making much of a song and dance about. The weight saving over metal analogues would come to a mere 40kg - the variation between individual pilots is probably in the same ball park!

I believe the "few hundred kg" of weight savings due to composite use was attributed to J-11B back in the day, not J-16, and that was the most significant rumour we had about composite use on a combat aircraft that had provided a number.
We do not have any rumours about how much composite use J-16 uses, which is what I was trying to convey in my last few posts on the matter.
 

ougoah

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There is no question J-16's ESM, ECM, radars and assorted intangibles are superior to Su-35 of VKS (assuming they are higher than the exported Su-35s).

VKS's Su-35s are also developed in the 2000s and while they may have received upgrades in the late 2010s (of a similar era to J-16 becoming matured in PLAAF service), this is highly unlikely given how slowly Mig-35 program went and how few Su-57 and Mig-35s ended up in VKS service since 2021, or indeed only ordered in Mig-35's case iirc.

Russia has to squeeze out a lot more from a lot less just to keep up with one domain of its fighter fleet. It is not only entirely believable that J-16's systems are well ahead of VKS Su-35, it is actually more likely that the PLAAF leaker "went easy" on the Su-35 by claiming it is 0.85 or so capable in those fields. Or maybe the J-16 isn't near J-20, J-16D, or even J-10C in ESM ECM etc and Su-35 being 0.85 is reasonable. I wouldn't be surprised if the Su-35s PLAAF received are barely even 0.5 the capability of J-16 in those fields. It is no doubt a superior kinematic performer and I do not care about the level of composites. No one knows. It is however clear to me that J-16 feature minimal surface mechanical changes to J-11B and Su-30s. Almost all of J-16's improvements over J-11B and Su-30MK2 are electronic and software in nature and those improvements have taken J-16 WELL ABOVE Su-30 and J-11B.
 

Volpler11

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It should also be noted that the internal load bearing structure is the most challenging to make out of composite on the entire aircraft, and I have in fact mentioned that here before. Changing these parts over from metal is, apart from the difficulty in designing the parts themselves, akin to a clean-sheet effort - you might as well engineer a new aircraft from scratch at that point. It would completely alter the geometry of the structure (e.g. bulkhead/rib spacings), and therefore result in very visible external differences, i.e. different rivet patterns - as I've also pointed out already. No such differences are discernible on J-11 or J-16 aircraft, so if anything we should be looking at skin panel replacements for the most part.
Changing to composite material requires additional engineering effort, yes, but nowhere near the same amount of designing a new aircraft.
More generally, even in the latest 5th generation fighters, the majority of the internal structure remains metallic and most of the composite content is on the surface. I don't know where you're taking your claim from.
Confirmed areas where composite materials are used includes
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, and here are some tail parts made from composite material at SAC.sac.JPG
 

Tirdent

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Changing to composite material requires additional engineering effort, yes, but nowhere near the same amount of designing a new aircraft.

Says who, based on what? Do you have a confirmed, real-world example of a change in structural materials comparable to what you are claiming for the J-11 (large scale, affecting primary internal load-bearing members)?

There aren't any, because it makes no sense - it's just not a cost-effective thing to do (least of all if you have a license with complete documentation from the original manufacturer). Perhaps the nearest approach is the MDD AV-8B Harrier II with its CFRP wing, but then that kind of reinforces what I've been saying. It has some structural commonality to the point that the first prototype was converted from an AV-8A, but really it is a completely new design, to the extent that its basic dimensions such as length and span are different.

Confirmed areas where composite materials are used includes
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, and here are some tail parts made from composite material at SAC.View attachment 81418

So we're back to green colour as an argument. Well, I cannot make the point any better than I did 3.5 years ago:

 

Schwerter_

Junior Member
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Says who, based on what? Do you have a confirmed, real-world example of a change in structural materials comparable to what you are claiming for the J-11 (large scale, affecting primary internal load-bearing members)?

There aren't any, because it makes no sense - it's just not a cost-effective thing to do (least of all if you have a license with complete documentation from the original manufacturer). Perhaps the nearest approach is the MDD AV-8B Harrier II with its CFRP wing, but then that kind of reinforces what I've been saying. It has some structural commonality to the point that the first prototype was converted from an AV-8A, but really it is a completely new design, to the extent that its basic dimensions such as length and span are different.



So we're back to green colour as an argument. Well, I cannot make the point any better than I did 3.5 years ago:

On the other hand, there isn't any concrete proof that such material changes must result in the degree of redesign and changes that you have mentioned. Without any concrete proof to suggest if either case is necessarily true, I suggest that everyone just take a step back.

Also, may I point out that there have been Chinese reports that stated that at least for J-11B, “under Yining Zhang's leadership, 4 major parts, including the wing, vertical stabilizers and horizontal stabilizers have been replaced with composite materials” There have also been papers that stated that the Chinese have switched from welded titanium bulkheads that the Russians were using to die-forged titanium bulkheads which are partially one-piece (bad translation on my part, basically means they're able to die-forge larger pieces of the bulkheads and do less welding) with significant weight reductions, strength increases as well as an increased fatigue strength and service life.

btw, the first report is proving troublesome to find the original source (seems to be a official article on Yining Zhang from the 2000s), with a few screenshots of part of the report floating around in the internet. The claim concerning the titanium bulkheads come from the paper "关于先进战斗机结构制造用钛概述"

p.s. the 4th missing "major part" in the article seems to be the air intake section by some accounts. One of Sun Cong and Wang Xiangming's co-publications, "飞机结构典型故障分析与设计改进", also talks about problems encountered during the process of switching to composites for intakes (there may also be mentions of other parts, but I'd need time to check the book for details)
 
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latenlazy

Brigadier
Says who, based on what? Do you have a confirmed, real-world example of a change in structural materials comparable to what you are claiming for the J-11 (large scale, affecting primary internal load-bearing members)?

There aren't any, because it makes no sense - it's just not a cost-effective thing to do (least of all if you have a license with complete documentation from the original manufacturer).

Normally I’d agree with this logic but they had to reinvent the entire production line and production process just to make the J-11B, and to further iterate on future variants. The cost that would have gone into structural iteration needed to incorporate new materials was already baked into the cost of needing to reverse engineer the production process from scratch.

If anything, the fact that they had to indigenize the production line on their own, likely using the techniques most compatible with their own available or desired production competences, makes it logically less likely that the J-11’s structural make and assembly details are one for one identical to the Su-27 than more.
 

Blitzo

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So we're back to green colour as an argument. Well, I cannot make the point any better than I did 3.5 years ago:


Just FYI, he's not talking about the colour, he's talking about the contents of what is spoken in those interviews, which he provides two links to and a screenshot of a relevant portion to.

For example, in that screenshot the image itself is less important than what is being spoken:
"高强度的碳纤维复合材料制成的".

So no, it's not a matter of "look at these yellow parts, which we assume are composites for no good reason".

And instead is "here is a state television documentary on the historical development of the aircraft type and they explicitly mention the use of composite materials".


Come on, you are better than this
 

Tirdent

Junior Member
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On the other hand, there isn't any concrete proof that such material changes must result in the degree of redesign and changes that you have mentioned. Without any concrete proof to suggest if either case is necessarily true, I suggest that everyone just take a step back.

I invite you to examine relevant real-world examples, one of which I actually mentioned.

Also, may I point out that there have been Chinese reports that stated that at least for J-11B, “under Yining Zhang's leadership, 4 major parts, including the wing, vertical stabilizers and horizontal stabilizers have been replaced with composite materials” There have also been papers that stated that the Chinese have switched from welded titanium bulkheads that the Russians were using to die-forged titanium bulkheads which are partially one-piece (bad translation on my part, basically means they're able to die-forge larger pieces of the bulkheads and do less welding) with significant weight reductions, strength increases as well as an increased fatigue strength and service life.

I can completely believe the single-piece titanium bulkheads, integrating formerly separate parts into larger machined parts is the kind of improvement you commonly see between successive aircraft variants. Gripen C vs. A, or Su-30MK & -35 vs. Su-27 are great examples. That's a lot less of a change than going to composite though, which due to its vastly different mechanical properties requires the shape of highly loaded parts to be completely redesigned.

Kind of irrelevant too, because 1) titanium is not composite and 2) the argument was about structural improvements in Chinese Flankers that are not found in their Russian counterparts. As mentioned, increased use of integral machining features extensively on the Su-30MK and Su-35, however.

p.s. the 4th missing "major part" in the article seems to be the air intake section by some accounts. One of Sun Cong and Wang Xiangming's co-publications, "飞机结构典型故障分析与设计改进", also talks about problems encountered during the process of switching to composites for intakes (there may also be mentions of other parts, but I'd need time to check the book for details)

I only found a table of contents in Chinese for this one, Google Translate suggests the only aircraft mentioned is the J-8?

If anything, the fact that they had to indigenize the production line on their own, likely using the techniques most compatible with their own available or desired production competences, makes it logically less likely that the J-11’s structural make and assembly details are one for one identical to the Su-27 than more.

Changing over primary load-bearing structure from metal to composite is not the kind of thing you undertake as a learning exercise though, that works only if you are already highly competent in this field. Again, a look at the wider Chinese aerospace industry doesn't suggest composites would've come into that category at the time in question (or even today, compared to Russia). Integrating parts into larger forgings sounds decidedly more plausible (but is beside the point), as discussed above.

And whether you consider it likely or not, the structural details of the J-11/16 are in many respects closer to the Su-27 than the Su-35 that Justin Bronk considers to be less advanced. It also bears repeating that I'm not necessarily saying the Chinese airframes have no changes or no composites at all, only that there is little evidence that the scale is sufficient to justify Bronk's argument.

Just FYI, he's not talking about the colour, he's talking about the contents of what is spoken in those interviews, which he provides two links to and a screenshot of a relevant portion to.

For example, in that screenshot the image itself is less important than what is being spoken:
"高强度的碳纤维复合材料制成的".

So no, it's not a matter of "look at these yellow parts, which we assume are composites for no good reason".

And instead is "here is a state television documentary on the historical development of the aircraft type and they explicitly mention the use of composite materials".

Come on, you are better than this

If I don't speak the language and (despite the fact that I mentioned this before) explanations are not forthcoming, 'fraid not.

The first link is one that was discussed before and light on specifics (parts concerned, scale), while the screenshot may or may not be J-11 parts (I certainly can't place them anywhere on the aircraft). I've now gone and made screenshots of the segment leading up to and including the shot of the J-11 tails in the second link to capture the subtitles and run them through an image translator. That did confirm beyond all doubt that the tail fins are composite, but the process has taken me the better part of 40 minutes to extract the contents of less than 40 seconds worth of video. I frankly don't think that's a reasonable effort to expect, and remain *very* skeptical about composite application beyond this.
 
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