China Flanker Thread II

[gelgoog]

What the heck? I thought the Su-30 used the Bars radar family which is planar array radar.
I do not know what you people are talking about. Twist-cassegrain was only on early Su-27 Flankers.
The Bars radar seemingly has issues with ground clutter though as seen in confrontation of India with Pakistan.
More modern radar variants might have been radar or better signal processing to ameliorate this issue.

 

[siegecrossbow]

What the heck? I thought the Su-30 used the Bars radar family which is planar array radar.
I do not know what you people are talking about. Twist-cassegrain was only on early Su-27 Flankers.
The Bars radar seemingly has issues with ground clutter though as seen in confrontation of India with Pakistan.
More modern radar variants might have been radar or better signal processing to ameliorate this issue.

Su-30MKK/MK2 usr a modified version of N001 with ground tracking abilities as well as support for active medium range AA missiles. BARS radars are PESA, not planar array. China opted for MKK because Chen Shuibian was president at the time and the PLA needed a mature fighter with advanced BVR capabilities. Until the J-11B was ready, China’s Su-30s filled The high tier AA fighter role in PLAAF.

That said, I think we’ve strayed from the topic far enough. This is a J-10 thread.

 

[Tam]

To clarify.

Su-27SK --- Uses N001E. Basic N001 with some enhancement.
Su-27UBK --- Uses N001V. N001 with R-77 support
Su-30MKK --- Uses N001VEP. N001V with TV channel for use with TV guided weapons and optical bombs. Also supports Kh-31P.
Su-30MK2 --- Uses N001VEP, Same as MKK but with additional support for Kh-31A antiship missile.
J-11A --- N001V with R-77 support.

Cockpits are generic Su-27 except for one MFD at the right side. Second cockpit has TV operation used for missiles such as Kh-59 and KAB-500 bombs.

J-10A uses Type 1473 slotted array radar developed by NRIET. Cockpit has three MFDs.
J-11B uses Type 1475 slotted array radar developed by NRIET. Essentially, a larger and more powerful version of the 1473.

PD or Pulse Doppler capabilities are independent of the array design. Inverse Cassegrain is capable of PD. I hate using the term PD to call slotted array radar. It is misleading.

Phazotron offered Zhuk-II for J-8II upgrade, Zhuk-10 for J-10 and Zhuk-27 for Su-27SKM. None of these were accepted by China as China went with local NRIET alternative. J-8II went with Type 1471. The problem with Russian defense media and Kanwa (Pinkov) is that they were hyping all these as if they were done deals when they were not.

N11P offered 'Panda' upgrade. Panda consists of converting the Inverse Cassegrain to reflector spaced phase array. This is something like the Podkat naval radar and the Big Bird search radar for the S-300 uses. Namely you have a feed shining down on a reflector phase array which shifts electronically via electronically controlled polarizers. China did not take up on this offer but Russia may have used this to upgrade their own planes instead.

Despite mechanical design of the array, N001V to N001VEP may have featured more advanced microelectronics relative to the N001. Again, use of microelectronics are independent of array design. You can have old style arrays but the back end can still be modern. That's how old radars are updated without physical change in the array.

I would think that the J-10A would have better radar and cockpit avionics than the MKK and MK2. China found ways to adapt PL-8 and PL-12 to the J-11A, MKK and MK2. This reduced the gap but gap still remains. From then on, China was convinced it would be better to adapt the systems you have on the J-10A to the Flanker airframe to create the J-11B.

Relative to these planes, JH-7A and upgraded JH-7 uses JL-8 or JL-8A slotted array radar and also featured MFDs in the cockpit. This comes from a different institute from NRIET. J-7F uses a tiny slotted array, referred to as JL-7.

 

[sequ]

To clarify.

Su-27SK --- Uses N001E. Basic N001 with some enhancement.
Su-27UBK --- Uses N001V. N001 with R-77 support
Su-30MKK --- Uses N001VEP. N001V with TV channel for use with TV guided weapons and optical bombs. Also supports Kh-31P.
Su-30MK2 --- Uses N001VEP, Same as MKK but with additional support for Kh-31A antiship missile.
J-11A --- N001V with R-77 support.

Cockpits are generic Su-27 except for one MFD at the right side. Second cockpit has TV operation used for missiles such as Kh-59 and KAB-500 bombs.

J-10A uses Type 1473 slotted array radar developed by NRIET. Cockpit has three MFDs.
J-11B uses Type 1475 slotted array radar developed by NRIET. Essentially, a larger and more powerful version of the 1473.

PD or Pulse Doppler capabilities are independent of the array design. Inverse Cassegrain is capable of PD. I hate using the term PD to call slotted array radar. It is misleading.

Phazotron offered Zhuk-II for J-8II upgrade, Zhuk-10 for J-10 and Zhuk-27 for Su-27SKM. None of these were accepted by China as China went with local NRIET alternative. J-8II went with Type 1471. The problem with Russian defense media and Kanwa (Pinkov) is that they were hyping all these as if they were done deals when they were not.

N11P offered 'Panda' upgrade. Panda consists of converting the Inverse Cassegrain to reflector spaced phase array. This is something like the Podkat naval radar and the Big Bird search radar for the S-300 uses. Namely you have a feed shining down on a reflector phase array which shifts electronically via electronically controlled polarizers. China did not take up on this offer but Russia may have used this to upgrade their own planes instead.

Despite mechanical design of the array, N001V to N001VEP may have featured more advanced microelectronics relative to the N001. Again, use of microelectronics are independent of array design. You can have old style arrays but the back end can still be modern. That's how old radars are updated without physical change in the array.

I would think that the J-10A would have better radar and cockpit avionics than the MKK and MK2. China found ways to adapt PL-8 and PL-12 to the J-11A, MKK and MK2. This reduced the gap but gap still remains. From then on, China was convinced it would be better to adapt the systems you have on the J-10A to the Flanker airframe to create the J-11B.

Relative to these planes, JH-7A and upgraded JH-7 uses JL-8 or JL-8A slotted array radar and also featured MFDs in the cockpit. This comes from a different institute from NRIET. J-7F uses a tiny slotted array, referred to as JL-7.

According to this source the su-30MKK uses the N001VE radar and the cockpit features color MFD's.

 

[Tam]

According to this source the su-30MKK uses the N001VE radar and the cockpit features color MFD's.

That's the MKI and the Su-35 cockpit. The only thing certain is the rear cockpit there. The second officer on the MKK views the screen for TV guided bombs and missiles, where you can view what the TV camera on these missiles are seeing to identify, verify and guide to the targets.

V stands for the R-VV which means the radar is R-77 compatible, and R-VV is what the Russians call the R-77. E stands for Export. So N001VE stands for R-77 capable and export. That's already the radar on the Su-27UBK and J-11A that was exported to China.

The reason for the P in the N001VEP is for the Kh-31P missile. Russian anti-radar missiles have the -P suffix attached to them, like Kh-25P. P you might suspect means Passive. The radar system is meant to support passive guided missiles. In addition they placed a TV channel to support the Kh-59 missile and KAB-500 bombs. The MKK is meant to deliver the Kh-31P to attack ROC radar and SAM sites.

The diagram above is all wet because the MKK is not equipped for the Kh-31A, it is the naval MK2 that was sold for the PLANAF and its radar variant that is equipped for the Kh-31A. The difference is that this version of the radar is designed to compensate for sea clutter and it has antiship firing modes for the radar, which means it has added MTI or Moving Target Indicator. So you get it, PLAAF MKK isn't Kh-31A compatible, the PLANAF MK2 is. What is the Kh-31A? It is the Antiship version of the Kh-31. That's the A for. It is Antiship.

 

[sequ]

That's the MKI and the Su-35 cockpit. The only thing certain is the rear cockpit there. The second officer on the MKK views the screen for TV guided bombs and missiles, where you can view what the TV camera on these missiles are seeing to identify, verify and guide to the targets.

V stands for the R-VV which means the radar is R-77 compatible, and R-VV is what the Russians call the R-77. E stands for Export. So N001VE stands for R-77 capable and export. That's already the radar on the Su-27UBK and J-11A that was exported to China.

The reason for the P in the N001VEP is for the Kh-31P missile. Russian anti-radar missiles have the -P suffix attached to them, like Kh-25P. P you might suspect means Passive. The radar system is meant to support passive guided missiles. In addition they placed a TV channel to support the Kh-59 missile and KAB-500 bombs. The MKK is meant to deliver the Kh-31P to attack ROC radar and SAM sites.

The diagram above is all wet because the MKK is not equipped for the Kh-31A, it is the naval MK2 that was sold for the PLANAF and its radar variant that is equipped for the Kh-31A. The difference is that this version of the radar is designed to compensate for sea clutter and it has antiship firing modes for the radar, which means it has added MTI or Moving Target Indicator. So you get it, PLAAF MKK isn't Kh-31A compatible, the PLANAF MK2 is. What is the Kh-31A? It is the Antiship version of the Kh-31. That's the A for. It is Antiship.

But what is/are your source(s) for all these claims?

 

[banjex]

^"P" in Cyrillic is actually "R"

The Latin "P" is "П" in Russian

edit: I see the Kh-31P is listed as "П" in Russian so all clear. But I believe the "A" stands for "active," not "antiship."

 

[The Observer]

That's the MKI and the Su-35 cockpit. The only thing certain is the rear cockpit there. The second officer on the MKK views the screen for TV guided bombs and missiles, where you can view what the TV camera on these missiles are seeing to identify, verify and guide to the targets.

I believe rather than MKI and Su-35, the cockpits are for MKI (the pair on the left) and Russian Su-30SM/SM1 (the pair on the right).

For Su-35, here's the cockpit example

My research links are:

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,

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,

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. Surely not the best source, but the cockpit pictures matches and I do believe they're correct.

The cutaway I'm not sure, but should be MKK from the lack of front canard and the radar.

And with this I end the off-topic discussion.

 

[sequ]

I believe rather than MKI and Su-35, the cockpits are for MKI (the pair on the left) and Russian Su-30SM/SM1 (the pair on the right).

I'm sure pictures on the right are not from the SU-30SM since they look like they precede that aircraft.

 

[The Observer]

I'm sure pictures on the right are not from the SU-30SM since they look like they precede that aircraft.

Look, I don't really want to continue this hopelessly off-topic debate, but have you check the source I posted instead of refuting what I said because the cockpit pictures 'look like they precede Su-30SM'?

And anyway, this discussion has gone off topic. Mods, please delete my post as you see fit.