China Flanker Thread II

[b787]

Because, as we've mentioned, we don't know the particulars of the engagement. How well trained were the pilots? Was this a BVR engagement, in which the Su-27s would usually dominate, or was this a WVR engagement? It's trivial for a 4.5 gen heavyweight fighter to detect and fire BVR missiles at a 3.5 gen super-lightweight fighter. Likewise, we don't know the difference in pilot training, a F-16 can beat an F-22 given a sufficient skill disparity.

JF-17 is not 3rd generation you like to fantasize; the JF-17 is a fourth generation, the fact it features LEX shows it has 4th generation aerodynamics, in fact it is 4.5 generation due to its DSI air intake and modern electronics.


The jet has two main disadvantages low power it is powered by a single engine and the intakes are lateral, not as good as ventral in terms of AoA handling.

Small aircraft need to be stealthy, quick to beat a heavy fighter.


If the aircraft has not a good radar then it can not compete versus a BVR Fighter thus if a nation is going to buy it, and might face F-15Es or Rafales, or even Su-30MKIs, well it is very bad as publicity regardless how you want to spin it, in reality most threats to aircraft comes from SAMs, thus you have aircraft like F-35.


Who will buy JF-17? only the ultra poor but if even K-8 is not satisfying customers like Bolivia that wants Argentina Ia-63 an old jet from 1980s to replace K-8s why they will buy JF-17s that are wiped by J-11s, .

 

[b787]

We don't know what the whole story anyway. The JF-17s probably scored a few victories too but the PLA published the article not to rub their victory in people's faces. Instead, they wanted accentuate the tenaciousness of their pilots in the face of adversity.
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I fly a real Su-27

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and my Flanker thinks I am a good pilot, plus the kids love papa

 

[Hyperwarp]

what a bad publicity for the Chinese JF-17, defeated by an old Soviet design first flown in 1977/1981 and refurbished in 1990 and in 2004 in China,


Interesting since it seems



That is bad publicity, in my opinion China still has some quality issues, for example


And know after this blow who will want to buy JF-17 if it can not even stand a modernized old soviet fighter!

Think the post belongs in the JF-17 thread. And, like vesicles said an old Ferrari or Porsche can easily beat the brand new Toyota Corolla. A 1970's MiG-31 will blow not 2 but 4 JF-17 out of the sky!

JF-17 is not an F-16, MiG-29 or J-10 equivalent. It is light fighter in the class of the LCA Tejas. An Su-30MKI would kill multiple LCA Tejas in both BVR and probably WVR.

JF-17 is a budget fighter for nations who cannot afford F-16/MiG-29 class fighters. Nations that can afford F-16/MiG-29 will buy those fighter not JF-17.

Same thing will apply to the FC-31. Nations that cannot afford F-35 or Su-57SK might go with FC-31.

 

[Inst]

The definition of generations is rather ambiguous, but note that the JF-17 is unstable only in the pitch axis and is only fly-by-wire in the pitch axis. If you look at the development history of the JF-17 project, it's basically an improvement of the MiG-21 line and should not properly be considered a 4th generation aircraft, although it will later take on 4.5th gen traits like AESA.

You are also gallivanting about the JF-17 as though it's a huge loss for China, except when the JF-17 is, while Chinese-designed, more of a Pakistani project, as the PLAAF has refused to induct it and much of its manufacture occurs in Pakistan.

But that said, let b787 go wank himself off.

 

[b787]

The definition of generations is rather ambiguous, but note that the JF-17 is unstable only in the pitch axis and is only fly-by-wire in the pitch axis. If you look at the development history of the JF-17 project, it's basically an improvement of the MiG-21 line and should not properly be considered a 4th generation aircraft, although it will later take on 4.5th gen traits like AESA.

JF-17=MiG21? wow, one has lateral intakes, the other has nose intake, one has huge LEX (featured of all modern 4th generation fighters except some delta canard) and the other a simple Delta outdated and from the late 1950s design philosophy .

DSI is basically a 1990s invention, MiG-21 nose intake first seen in early fighters of 1940-1950s.


The JF-17 is a 4th generation fighter with limitations in G loading capacity, TWR, in few words a modern F-20 Tigershark with more advanced features.


Now in combat it is supposedly capable to take on heavy laden heavy fighters like Su-27/J-11 in WVR and even in BVR if its radar is good enough.

Now you say J-11 beat it even when it was outnumbered?.

So in my conclusion why you have a Fighter that Su-30MKI will spank and most poor nations will go for 2nd hand F-16s, Mirage 2000s or MiG-29s?


Any way beating JF-17 is not a great feat, Su-27s/J-11 will face more advanced fighters like F-35, (north Korea knows it since some F-35s are flying close to its borders) so in few words it only makes JF-17 really look bad.

But well live in fantasy land, it was a great feat by Shenyang making look bad Chengdu

 

[Deino]

Stay on topic or don't post :-(

 

[Hyperwarp]

^^^ Deino, could you move the J-11B vs JF-17 stuff to the JF-17 thread.

 

[ougoah]

Any new developments from Shaheen exercise? In regards to Chinese flankers beating JF-17s, that doesn't mean much at all unless we know specifics of the exercises. Like it was mentioned a few pages back, Su-30s beat and got beaten by F-15s and EF-2000s in past exercises. Doesn't mean much unless we know all the details. In this case, it means nothing really. Probably Chinese media drumming up some nationalism with a "OMG look one of our fighters can beat two pakistani ones". Completely pointless. Only idiots will draw any conclusions from that alone. However, it wouldn't surprise me that even given a level 1vs1 playing field, Su-27 modernised variants will easily defeat JF-17. It's half the size, range, payload, and radar output. China never bought this because it's got short legs and that was unacceptable. Su-27 variants still King of the air in East Asia. PLAAF Su-35s are top dogs, nothing comes close (not counting F-22s in Japan ). Surprised J-11b are capable planes? Good luck with everything else then. It's like how people were comparing F-15J to J-11 a few years ago without knowing the F-15Js have not been modernised and would barely be able to go up against JF-17s today if nothing else is used as support. Soviet Union lost the Cold War partly because they couldn't keep up with the economic might of the USA and they went broke trying to strengthen their military. China has done the opposite and ought to invest more if anything.

 

[Julio Ramos]

Rafales and Typhoons had beaten F-22 in DACT.
Shall we think that those planes are better than the Raptor?
In this year's AVIADARTS JH-7 beat Su-34, do we have to think the Fullback is garbage?

DACT results has some meaning only if you know the RoE, and even then we would not forget that the T means training, not the real thing.

 

[ougoah]

I fly a real Su-27

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and my Flanker thinks I am a good pilot, plus the kids love papa

Why include a picture of your wife? I'm not following your attempt at humour. If that is what it is. Not sure if serious Su-27 pilot. Don't know why you enjoy trolling these forums and taking shots at anything Chinese whenever the opportunity presents. Why not do that for other nations? What's your agenda? Always wondered that. First thought it was just defending everything Russian, but who could be bothered?