China demographics thread.

Chilled_k6

Junior Member
Registered Member
Too much sci-fi futuristic solutions coming up in a serious thread about a serious problem

The demographics problem was first talked since the early 2000s. That we are at the end of 2021 and just now some serious actions are being taken is incomprehensible. Basically wasted 2 decades

However, better late than never. People can talk all they want about "purity" but the issue remains. Its a numbers game. Workforce is going down very fast

The recent plunge of home prices certainly helps (thx Evergrande...). However this is still not enough. Extreme measures need to be taken asap so that we try to make up for the last 2 wasted decades that no significant action was taken.
Agreed. There was a lot of inertia to taking earlier action & the mentality was well, China has such a large population, it won't be a problem. I have also seen many Chinese say if the population drop by several hundreds of millions, life would be more comfortable. Certainly there will be less competition and gdp per capita will go up...a bit of an essay on demographic issues & solutions so here goes:

Chinese are well aware of our own history. Here, I would like to point to ancient Western history. The Roman Emperor Augustus actually created laws that punished childlessness, divorce & adultery among the Roman Nobility as he was worried about population decline. However it seemed the natural population continued to decrease in later periods. The upper class Romans wanted to have less kids to concentrate wealth in their heirs. The Roman's took a lot of slaves from the Germanic tribes to supplement their declining manpower. A lot of soldiers were also from these tribes. Of course, these slaves and soldiers would later revolt as the Huns drove Germanic tribes westward. Declining demographics was a major contributor to the decline of the Roman Empire.

The Ancient Greeks also blamed their conquest by Rome on declining demographics. Apparently, the society had a massive gender imbalance of males vs. Females because of female infanticide, which eventually led to population drop and manpower shortage in war.

Now I ain't no expert in history or it's analysis. But actually, I think the Roman case has a lot of of parallel with modern Western society. They also serve as a cautionary tale for China.

I have seen the solutions posted on this thread. Economic incentives, pro Natalist policies, I think they are part of solving the puzzle and China is on their way with these. Technological advances will certainly mitigate some of the economic effects. Immigration would be at the bottom of my list.

I expand further and ask, why do people even have children? In the modern age, children are a net economic loss to their parents. So what value do they provide? Well, they provide social capital. Parents enjoy life with kids around. Then there are also traditional pressures like aging parents who want their adult children to start families. I think this is rather flimsy though as obviously a good minority of people don't see kids as contributing socially to their lives, and hence we see birth rates stagnate at a low level all across modern societies despite incentives.

Personally, I think the best solution is to appeal to people's sense of identity. China has a patriotic population proud of their history and optimistic about their future. I think if people can see this problem as hindering the perpetuation of China itself, of everything they have worked hard for and the legacy of their ancestors, it would go a long way as motivation. China needs to treat it like going against Covid. Maybe the govt needs to admit publically the 1 child policy went on for too long. Basically, treat it like an existential crisis as early as possible, before it actually becomes one. It's getting late.
 

Petrolicious88

Senior Member
Registered Member
Dude, with all due respect to you as your fellow Asian and human being, you need to get a grip of yourself and come back to reality. You have been going off on this crazy train ride you have been ranting on your posts.

Stop with the crazy talk and perhaps get some sleep or rest.
Can’t believe people here are talking about forcing women to have more kids and artificial selection of womb creation. Lolll. Stop. Just stop it.
 

Appix

Senior Member
Registered Member
Agreed. There was a lot of inertia to taking earlier action & the mentality was well, China has such a large population, it won't be a problem. I have also seen many Chinese say if the population drop by several hundreds of millions, life would be more comfortable. Certainly there will be less competition and gdp per capita will go up...a bit of an essay on demographic issues & solutions so here goes:

Chinese are well aware of our own history. Here, I would like to point to ancient Western history. The Roman Emperor Augustus actually created laws that punished childlessness, divorce & adultery among the Roman Nobility as he was worried about population decline. However it seemed the natural population continued to decrease in later periods. The upper class Romans wanted to have less kids to concentrate wealth in their heirs. The Roman's took a lot of slaves from the Germanic tribes to supplement their declining manpower. A lot of soldiers were also from these tribes. Of course, these slaves and soldiers would later revolt as the Huns drove Germanic tribes westward. Declining demographics was a major contributor to the decline of the Roman Empire.

The Ancient Greeks also blamed their conquest by Rome on declining demographics. Apparently, the society had a massive gender imbalance of males vs. Females because of female infanticide, which eventually led to population drop and manpower shortage in war.

Now I ain't no expert in history or it's analysis. But actually, I think the Roman case has a lot of of parallel with modern Western society. They also serve as a cautionary tale for China.

I have seen the solutions posted on this thread. Economic incentives, pro Natalist policies, I think they are part of solving the puzzle and China is on their way with these. Technological advances will certainly mitigate some of the economic effects. Immigration would be at the bottom of my list.

I expand further and ask, why do people even have children? In the modern age, children are a net economic loss to their parents. So what value do they provide? Well, they provide social capital. Parents enjoy life with kids around. Then there are also traditional pressures like aging parents who want their adult children to start families. I think this is rather flimsy though as obviously a good minority of people don't see kids as contributing socially to their lives, and hence we see birth rates stagnate at a low level all across modern societies despite incentives.

Personally, I think the best solution is to appeal to people's sense of identity. China has a patriotic population proud of their history and optimistic about their future. I think if people can see this problem as hindering the perpetuation of China itself, of everything they have worked hard for and the legacy of their ancestors, it would go a long way as motivation. China needs to treat it like going against Covid. Maybe the govt needs to admit publically the 1 child policy went on for too long. Basically, treat it like an existential crisis as early as possible, before it actually becomes one. It's getting late.
Good post. The very low birthrate is the biggest threat China is facing (USA hostility is positioned second) and may result in its downfall. I hope I'm wrong but what is worrisome is that we see no action from Zhongnanhai to adress this humongous problem.
 

AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
I write science fiction and good science fiction is a reflection about the problems of today. I always hear naïve liberals say to solve racism there should be only one race meaning they're for social engineering sexual partnerships to mix everyone up until everyone can't claim to be another race. It certainly isn't going to happen naturally because it would take a long time for it to occur in that manner. Also if you know Westerners, they're impatient. They expect things to happen immediately because they want to see the accomplishment before they die. The Chinese plan for things to happen that they will never live long enough to see the end result. Westerners want to see the end result. If they can't, they won't even bother. So imagine Western liberals having their way. How would they accomplish creating one race given they're impatient? You do it by allowing only certain races of men to procreate with any number of women of any race they wish while disallowing it for the men of the races that were left out. It's absurd but that would be the quickest way to mix the races. But it's just as absurd to believe the West who are proclaiming there's going to be a problem in countries like China that has to be solved even care. They're worried there are too many Chinese now and not because they're looking out for humanity. That's the real reason why they're worried that they will be overwhelmed by Chinese. It's just like how I point out when the US claims its teaching China how to be innovative when Trump's trade war shows how the West is deathly afraid of Chinese innovation. Innovation is just the bait because what they say breeds innovation is the what they want to see happen instead and that's their freedom in China in the guise of freedom for the Chinese people. Freedom to them is allowing their social media companies to have free reign in China so they can manipulate the masses like what is happen domestically in their own countries. They don't give a crap if it's creating societal disarray like in their countries. They want that to happen in China so China isn't a threat to them. And what's the one thing you hear about consistently what they worry about China's population and gender imbalance problem is Chinese men are going to rape the women of the world. They don't think that's absurd. All this talk about China's population problem is really about making China a threat. China is said to already have at least a twenty million male imbalance. How come we don't hear about Chinese men raping women en masse right now? The Western media would certainly report it if it were happening. Is there a magic number until Chinese men start raping women wildly? There's already at least twenty million Chinese men who don't have hope finding a partner. How come they haven't raped women? It's because it's not going to happen the way they think. And as usual ignorant people look at themselves on how they would react to get an idea how other people would react. All you have to do is look at the Jan 6th insurrectionists where the alt-right, Proud Boys, and incels behind it all complained about how American society makes them don't feel like men. Women outnumber men in the US so what's their problem? American men are violent even without a gender imbalance. So by the American logic that everyone else does it more or they do it less, whichever is worse, of course they believe Chinese men are going to be more violent than they are despite how they believe Asian men in general aren't masculine. Every time a Westerner brings up the population and gender imbalance problem in China, it's all about there racism and not because they're looking out for the Chinese.

My science fiction scenario does result in violence and war. Why? Because someone is trying to force it against people's will which is the case all the time especially when the claim it's for the good of all. Where's the violence in China when it has a twenty million more Chinese men gender imbalance? There will be little because the situation although is unfortunate, it's not being forced onto people. Western men will attack Asian men trying to emasculate them every step of the way but who's doing that to them for them to act in violent ways like what happen on Jan 6th? And they're trying to transfer that on Chinese men... I don't have sympathy for white men who think society is trying take away their masculinity when they're always trying to do that to other races of men. Where does someone like Trump get the idea that all Mexican men are rapists? That's a racist stereotype of men they have of all other races they give to scare all women of other men and somehow they want sympathy because they think society is trying to take away their masculinity...? They even use the latest statistic that the life expectancy of American men has dropped for the first time ever in history due to how many white men are committing suicide to garner sympathy for themselves... a sympathy they don't care to give to anyone else.

When I was a kid, other kids would tell me I was going to grow up and beat women because that's what Asian men do. They teach their racism to their kids early on because how else would a child come up with that conclusion to tease? And they cry like a woman wanting sympathy that their masculinity is being taken away from them...
 
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mossen

Junior Member
Registered Member
China will be fine. Even with 700 million at the end of this century, it will be bigger than the US. More importantly, even India will likely
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.

None of the commentators here take into account that quality of human capital is not evenly distributed across the world.

brightest math distribution.png

The chart is a bit messy, but basically China has 20X the amount of "math geniuses" (according to PISA) than the US has according to a more conservative estimate. If you take the optimistic estimate, the difference goes up to 40X.

America's position is better than this chart will tell you because it doesn't include emigration of bright minds, which remains America's biggest strength. Even so, that won't be enough to ever meaningfully close the gap.

The key question is if these bright minds will be put to good use or if they will be wasted, which was China's default problem for most of its recent history. That's a cultural-sociological question.
 

Appix

Senior Member
Registered Member
I heavily dislike WSJ for it's support for Anglophone neoliberalism, billionaires and American Imperialism and Empire but this article of them about Chinese very severe demographic and birth rate problems is overall quite balanced for the standaards of the western mainstreammedia.

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Appix

Senior Member
Registered Member

China encourages 3rd child, telling party comrades to set example​

Regional governments that cannot give cash incentives offer longer parental leave.

With married couples now permitted a third child in China, the government is pressuring Communist Party members to lead by example, even though many complain that they cannot afford to have more children without cash assistance.
In a December editorial, the party-affiliated China Reports Network said Communist Party members have an obligation to marry and have children to contribute to population growth.
There is no excuse for them to have "only one or two children," the piece also said. Posts on online discussion boards urge party members to walk the walk as well.

Still, the push has met lukewarm response among rank-and-file members. "They can try to force us all they want, but there's nothing we can do without better financial assistance," said a father of one in his mid-30s.

Regional governments are also rolling out programs to help child-rearing families. But with strained finances, most of the country has given up on cash incentives, and instead focused on extending parental leave, a gesture largely dismissed by the public as unhelpful.
China has struggled with declining births after years of limiting couples to one, then two, children. About 12 million babies were born in the country in 2020, down 18% from the year before. The figure continued to fall in 2021, with many estimates placing the annual tally below the record low of 11.97 million from 1961.
China's economic development is a top priority for Chinese President Xi Jinping and a rapidly aging society would hinder that.

The national government formally amended a law in April to allow couples a third child, while regional governments have rolled out new programs to help child-rearing families.

At the end of October, Shaanxi Province announced plans to offer an additional six months of maternity leave to women having a third child. The proposal would more than double its current cap of 168 days to about 350.

The city of Beijing is also looking to extend maternity leave, as well as Jiangsu, Hubei and Jiangxi provinces. Those places are looking at about a monthlong extension to the current four to five months.

But some question this focus on maternity leave. "I'd have a hard time returning to work if I were away for so long," said a mother of two in Beijing.

Hunan Province decided not to extend maternity leave, citing the potential effect on women's employment.

The employment rate for women with one child is 6.6 points lower than women with none, according to a study by the Huazhong University of Science and Technology. The rate falls by another 9.3 points among women with two children.

Both parents typically work in China, meaning household incomes suffer significantly when mothers struggle to find a job after a new baby. The Huazhong University study found that families with more children tend to have lower earned incomes.

Rather than extending parental leave, many have advocated for direct cash payments to parents.

"In order to lift birth numbers, it's important to provide cash incentives for a third child," Peking University professor Liu Qiao said in a December speech.
Ren Zeping, chief economist at Soochow Securities, agreed. "The People's Bank of China should print money for a new fund designed to encourage new births," he said.

Ren Zeping, chief economist at Soochow Securities, agreed. "The People's Bank of China should print money for a new fund designed to encourage new births," he said.

But few municipalities have unveiled specific plans for such handouts. The city of Panzhihua, for example, will give out 500 yuan ($78.60) per month for a couple's second and third children until they turn three.

Most others are reluctant to directly distribute cash because of a lack of resources. Tax cuts designed to lift the Chinese economy have squeezed revenues for many regional governments. A cooling housing market has only added to the woes.

Over the years, China's regional governments have grown increasingly dependent on the
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for state-owned plots to developers. These sales accounted for 43% of the roughly 19 trillion yuan in independent income logged by regional governments in 2020.

But the Communist Party leadership has recently been cracking down on financing to the real estate sector to discourage speculation. With struggling companies no longer eligible to purchase new rights, total income from selling them grew just 3.8% on the year in January-November -- a marked slowdown from the double digit growth until 2020. The figure fell on the year for 26 of China's 31 provincial-level governments, according to investment bank China International Capital.

Last month, Central Economic Work Conference, which laid out China's economic policies for 2022, warned of tough times ahead for the Communist Party and government agencies. It is unclear how much capacity regional governments have for cash incentives moving forward.

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