China Buys Tu-22MB Bomber Production Line from Russia

MiG-29

MiG-29

Banned Idiot
Speeder said:
In this case the ultimate root source of this EU news is most likely Russian.

It appears, no, it is beyond doubt that Russain major sources particularly Rosoboronexport and RIA novosti are nothing more than kind of “celeb gossips” when it comes to weapon-related sales to China, if their track record of the last decade is a guide.

Want to know what are Chinese weapon sales news (a.k.a. factual events)? Quote Xinhua.
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you are completly wrong, Rosoboronexport is an official Russian source, RIA novosti is not official just a news outlet, so if Rosoboronexport says a sale was made is official, RIA novosti is not.

Second you have no real knowledge of Tu-22M pitch to the chinese market, Russia and China have talked about Tu-22M sales, but never materialized.

The misunderstanding stems from the confusion people get talks=contract.

Russia and China have an extensive cooperation in aerospace matters, is not like some people portrait, both nations exchange a lot information in military affairs and Russian sources are reliable, but some people biased can not understand many times Russian sources say negociations, not sales, in fact official sources only publish data when a contract is confirmed.

RIA novosti can sometimes be less reliable but Rosoboronexport is completly reliable because is an official agency
 
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vesicles

vesicles

Colonel
Xiongmao said:
I agree with t_co's sentiments here. I'm a noob here and I have some thoughts which I would like to share. Please don't beat me up, I don't know as much as you guys do :)

If anybody has read the Art of War, one would know that a main theme to gain the upper hand is deception in all its various forms. Therefore, it seems to me that if the enemy sees a plane and assumes that it is something that it is not, then you have the advantage. If China were to develop a brand new class of stealth bomber with all the trimmings, then you can bet that in a time of war the enemy will concentrate full resources to knocking out that piece of kit. However, if your research time and money was used in producing super internal upgrades to airframes such as the H-6, then by all external appearances, these bombers won't be seen as that much of a threat. You don't have to upgrade all H-6's, just a percentage, say 20% of them to make them super H-6s. The enemy will find it hard in a full combat situation to determine how much ordnance to devote to an incoming H-6, it could be a poor 1960s capable bomber or the latest 21st century bomber packed with latest avionics etc. The point is to create uncertainty and doubt in the opponent and make him waste resources. I know all of us here fans would love China to have sexy planes to ogle at, but is that the best strategy for the nation?

On a another point, I think that China should concentrate solely in developing army, navy and air forces for the defence of the motherland and her interests. China should not follow the path of the USA and use force all around the world to further her interests. Besides creating much resentment and drastically affecting her soft power amongst the people's of the world, it is one of the primary reasons why the USA is now facing national bankruptcy. China should spend just enough on protecting herself from foreign intervention and should put the rest on building up her economy and foreign relationships. I am not a military strategist by any means, but it appears to me that creating a force to defend yourself in familiar territory is vastly cheaper than creating a global offensive force. In the end, let the USA waste away like the Roman Empire while China will just get stronger and stronger doing nothing other than keeping her own backyard secure.
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Deception can be in many forms. The kind you mention is only suited for a weak nation facing a strong opponent. It is a temparory solution, not a permanent one. If you keep thinking using an H-6 frame to fool your opponent, you won't get anywhere since an old frame can only get modified so much. Even if it gets modified by 200%, it is still an inferior frame than the most advanced frame other nations are working on. It's modification vs. revolution. Which one do you think will get you a better plane? About deception, yes, your opponent might be stunned a little at the beginning. And he may not know exactly what your capability is. But there is a solution to that: I assume you fly the most advanced plane that I can think of and try the best I can to beat you. When that happens, I don't see how an H-6 can win against the most advanced opponent, no matter how much you modify the H-6.

This kind of mindset is completely unacceptable. This is assuming that China will always stay as the weak one and only think about how to play tricks to "fool" the opponents. What China is doing now is to focus on solid, hard-core capabilities so that China does not have to resort to such tricks in actual combat. And only with the correct mindset and continued revolution, China will one day have the real capabilities, not some fake tricks to fool people. Remember that a trick can only work once, but real capabilities will carry you throughout the day.

Another key point is the art of war is that you want to show off your capabilities as best as you can if you are the strong one to scare off your opponent. You should only hide your capabilities if you are the weak one. With your opponent scared, you have the psychological upper hand in an actual combat. In the best case scenario, you don't even have to actually fight to get what you want if your opponent thinks of you as this insurmountable mountain. The art of war says the best strategy is to achieve your goal without any fighting. Pretending you are weak and inferior will not achieve this goal.
 
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TyroneG

Banned Idiot
1.2B might be too much just for the airframe design and production tech, maybe 300mil.

China could get the design at a cheaper price and subsequently modify the frontal shape and intake to make it stealth shape. If legacy flanker modified to the stealth T50, I don't see why can't the Tu-22MB be modified to be stealth with minimal effort. or at least partial stealth, frontal stealth is most important cause it's strike from front side and then quickly run away.

All it's interior electronics need to be stripped and replaced with the H6K avionics.

It has superior airframe than the H6K though, especially if it can modified to be frontal stealth and much bigger payload than JH7A. And no way, J-20, which size of a flanker can carry the payload like the TU-22MB. How many of those mach 5 CM-400 small anti-ship missiles or anti-radiation missiles it can carry? Tons of them.

This strike platform would at least be deadly against japan's aegis fleet without air wing coverage.
 
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Skywatcher

Captain
Maybe it could be a modification of the original Tu-22M3 (try to make the airframe a bit more stealthy?)

China might deliver the first dozen or so airframes to Russia, or some arrangement like that (the PAK-DA is still a long ways away, and you're not going to use the Tu-160 for Backfire missions).
 
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wuguanhui

New Member
TyroneG said:
China could get the design at a cheaper price and subsequently modify the frontal shape and intake to make it stealth shape. If legacy flanker modified to the stealth T50, I don't see why can't the Tu-22MB be modified to be stealth with minimal effort.
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You're joking, right? Stealthy, aerodynamic and minimal effort don't really go together.

This strike platform would at least be deadly against japan's aegis fleet without air wing coverage.
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How do you figure that? Saturation attacks are what the Aegis was designed to defeat.
 
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Franticfrank

New Member
I'd also say China's better off pursuing its own advanced bomber. I've read that the upgrade on the Russian Airforce SU-24s is extremely effective, rendering ordnance delivery at least three times more accurate. However, it isn't an extensive upgrade and will merely keep that aircraft up to speed until it is replaced by the SU-34. This is probably the same with the limited TU-22 upgrade, which should be similar to the SU-24's. It first flew in 1969 anyhow. Adopting this bomber would be a step backwards for China.
 
rhino123

rhino123

Pencil Pusher
VIP Professional
Franticfrank said:
I'd also say China's better off pursuing its own advanced bomber. I've read that the upgrade on the Russian Airforce SU-24s is extremely effective, rendering ordnance delivery at least three times more accurate. However, it isn't an extensive upgrade and will merely keep that aircraft up to speed until it is replaced by the SU-34. This is probably the same with the limited TU-22 upgrade, which should be similar to the SU-24's. It first flew in 1969 anyhow. Adopting this bomber would be a step backwards for China.
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Actually I would like to disagree in some points. True, it would be good if China could pursue its own advance bomber, however, at present moment, with multiple projects running in parallel, I think it would be better if China could obtain some Tu-22M (upgraded or otherwise) as a stop gap measure, until the rest of the projects came in and replace them.

H-6 is going to be pretty useful, however no matter how much you modify or update the aircraft, it is essentially a heavily modified Tu-16 and there is limits to how much you can modify the airframe.
 
broadsword

broadsword

Brigadier
rhino123 said:
Actually I would like to disagree in some points. True, it would be good if China could pursue its own advance bomber, however, at present moment, with multiple projects running in parallel, I think it would be better if China could obtain some Tu-22M (upgraded or otherwise) as a stop gap measure, until the rest of the projects came in and replace them.

H-6 is going to be pretty useful, however no matter how much you modify or update the aircraft, it is essentially a heavily modified Tu-16 and there is limits to how much you can modify the airframe.
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With China having no urgent requirement for a more capable bomber than the H-6, China would rather pursue the envelope with their own technological capability. They have already produced generation 4 and 5 fighters, attack and medium lift helicopters and are now developing a commercial jet, it makes more practical sense for them to use their technological knowledge to develop their own heavy bomber.
 
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