China as a Super Power

Spartan95

Junior Member
China isn't a superpower comparable to the US of A yet, militarily, and (perhaps more important) culturally.
The US can distribute their own views on matters for the rest of the world in a seemingly sincere, high quality form, as well as having a large volumes of entertainment (music, tv shows, films/hollywood etc) which further cements their media power.

I think part of the issue is the language barrier.

English language entertainment has been successfully marketed to a lot of countries for many decades, whereas Chinese language entertainment is limited to those nations with Chinese communities. How this will turn out in the future is anybody's guess.

However, China is putting resources into promoting its own culture so as to enhance its soft power. The Beijing Olympics is a case in point, as are block buster Chinese movies that are dubbed in English and marketed overseas. How successful this effort will be remains to be seen.
 

Spartan95

Junior Member
I have to agree that to call China a superpower is still premature. No doubt China is a great Power and a Proto Superpower, but there are still many issues that make superpower definition difficult.

1) Still about half the population are rural subsistence farmers with very low incomes.

2) GDP per capita is still very low overall although Coastal Provinces are in a different league to their inland cousins.

3) The Chinese Military is largely a domestic force with only a few overseas postings (none exercise related).

4) A Chinese International Financial and Legal Infrastructure is still largely undeveloped.

In all instances, significant progress has been made as in ongoing and so yes, it is only a matter of time, but they still a work in progress, not yet arrived.

In one sense it may appear unfair as in terms of strict numbers there are large parts of China that would qualify far better than the country as a whole and a smaller, less populous nation with the same fundamentals could make superpower claims with justification. China however is a single country not a collection and so we must judge it as a whole and not selectively.

Your points are valid. And indeed China needs to be taken as a whole, which is what makes it an economic and diplomatic Super Power.

The point about per capita GDP is interesting though. If that is a yardstick to measure economic strength, than quite a few European countries and Japan will qualify since they have some of the highest per capita GDP in the world.

There is also the issue of financial debt vs financial reserves. China has the world's largest financial reserves. This is 1 of the sources of its economic strength.

Ultimately, I would say it comes down to perception. It may be a bit early to call China a Super Power, but there is a degree of subjectivity to it and a large part is dependent on individual perceptions.
 

antiterror13

Brigadier
I do not know how credible that estimate is. But it is included to highlight the difficulty in getting an accurate population census for the world's most populous nation.



I think tphuang's post provided an excellent analysis of where China's strengths are. China is indeed an economic and diplomatic Super Power already.

As for power projection, that is certainly a military yardstick to measure by. While the PLA is not quite there in power projection, I'm not so sure the USSR fulfilled that criteria when it was considered a Super Power either.

--- EDIT ---

Forgot to mention China's space program.

During the Cold War, both Super Powers (US & USSR) were the only countries who can put a man in orbit using their own space programs. They are also the only 2 countries to have put a man on the moon.

China is now the 3rd country to have put a man in orbit through its own space program. And China is aiming for the moon as well as building a Chinese space station. Not quite the same level yet as compared to the US and USSR space programs of old. However, the level of activity in the respective countries space program provides an indication of the pace of development.

The USA is the only country to have put a man on the moon. USSR never achieved that feat
 

rhino123

Pencil Pusher
VIP Professional
@Spartan

I would agreed on most of what you have said. Yes, China's economic and technological growth are highly impressive and her GDP is flying like a rocket (which not necessary means a good thing - think of inflation).

However I would not agreed that being the most populous country in the world would be one of the points as a superpower. Most of the Chinese population are still quite poor and backward in terms of education and buying power... although I believe that this will change in the future but not right now. Plus many of these people are also cause of internal turmoil - look at Tibet and Xinjiang, the minority there (which actually are quite alot if you look at the numbers) are fighting against the Chinese rule and they are the cause of many problems.

China's military might be great on paper, with heaps of advance hardwares, but they are untested mostly and how they fare in real war is a big question mark. It brings me back to some old news on the Syria air defences (which boast to be among the best in the world and had one of the most advance technology at that time) but they are defeated pretty quickly by the Israelis. So having the best or advance hardware doesn't necessary means they are extremely good.

Next is the infrastructure of China... true, the infrastructure (roads, railways, air ports, buildings, factory, etc) are very established at the coastal cities and some inland cities, but not more inland. And what about the infrastructure linking all the cities together?

Plus welfare system of the Chinese are not very establish unlike that of the West too (but not sure if this will actually attribute to China not being a superpower).
 

bladerunner

Banned Idiot
I think part of the issue is the language barrier.

English language entertainment has been successfully marketed to a lot of countries for many decades, whereas Chinese language entertainment is limited to those nations with Chinese communities. How this will turn out in the future is anybody's guess.

However, China is putting resources into promoting its own culture so as to enhance its soft power. The Beijing Olympics is a case in point, as are block buster Chinese movies that are dubbed in English and marketed overseas. How successful this effort will be remains to be seen.

Something that has vibrancy, passion and pizaazz like this?:D:D

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AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
Leave the superficial titles to others. These are terms or decalrations are made up by those who just want everyone grabbing onto the next coined term. I was watching GPS 360 on CNN Sunday morning and it was the Indian Foreign Minister and some British intellectual bashing China for concepts like "G-2" that China had nothing to do with. They were wary of the world revolving around China and the US. China has never entertained such notions but of course it's typical in the West to build things up just so they can tear it down. Just like reports that you hear China is about to go along with sanctions against Iran that come from "anonymous" sources. And then when China doesn't follow through they act as if China tricked everyone. That's the trend is to create their own fake outrage.

Here's the news... China doesn't want to be declared a "superpower." Recently the West tried to declare China a superpower only to use it to think they can trick China to follow what they saw was their international duty. And what was it? Everything they've been always trying to force China to follow along. And since it didn't work, I'll bet the West has gone back to withdrawing the title and will hold it hostage for something else in the future.
 

tphuang

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
VIP Professional
Registered Member
@Spartan

I would agreed on most of what you have said. Yes, China's economic and technological growth are highly impressive and her GDP is flying like a rocket (which not necessary means a good thing - think of inflation).

However I would not agreed that being the most populous country in the world would be one of the points as a superpower. Most of the Chinese population are still quite poor and backward in terms of education and buying power... although I believe that this will change in the future but not right now. Plus many of these people are also cause of internal turmoil - look at Tibet and Xinjiang, the minority there (which actually are quite alot if you look at the numbers) are fighting against the Chinese rule and they are the cause of many problems.

China's military might be great on paper, with heaps of advance hardwares, but they are untested mostly and how they fare in real war is a big question mark. It brings me back to some old news on the Syria air defences (which boast to be among the best in the world and had one of the most advance technology at that time) but they are defeated pretty quickly by the Israelis. So having the best or advance hardware doesn't necessary means they are extremely good.

Next is the infrastructure of China... true, the infrastructure (roads, railways, air ports, buildings, factory, etc) are very established at the coastal cities and some inland cities, but not more inland. And what about the infrastructure linking all the cities together?

Plus welfare system of the Chinese are not very establish unlike that of the West too (but not sure if this will actually attribute to China not being a superpower).

Your last point is establishing that China is not wealthy individually. That is different from economic power as a nation.

Infrastructure weakness in rural inland areas is not going to affect national power that much, since that is more of a plus for economic development.

In terms of economic power, they still have a lot of growth potential unlike the developed countries, but is already a superpower in this area. This is the one area China could make up for its weakness in cultural influence.
 

Spartan95

Junior Member
If nothing else, this NYT article called China a "world technology superpower":

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China Wrests Supercomputer Title From U.S.
By ASHLEE VANCE
Published: October 28, 2010

A Chinese scientific research center has built the fastest supercomputer ever made, replacing the United States as maker of the swiftest machine, and giving China bragging rights as a technology superpower.

The computer, known as Tianhe-1A, has 1.4 times the horsepower of the current top computer, which is at a national laboratory in Tennessee, as measured by the standard test used to gauge how well the systems handle mathematical calculations, said Jack Dongarra, a University of Tennessee computer scientist who maintains the official supercomputer rankings.

Although the official list of the top 500 fastest machines, which comes out every six months, is not due to be completed by Mr. Dongarra until next week, he said the Chinese computer “blows away the existing No. 1 machine.” He added, “We don’t close the books until Nov. 1, but I would say it is unlikely we will see a system that is faster.”

Officials from the Chinese research center, the National University of Defense Technology, are expected to reveal the computer’s performance on Thursday at a conference in Beijing. The center says it is “under the dual supervision of the Ministry of National Defense and the Ministry of Education.”

The race to build the fastest supercomputer has become a source of national pride as these machines are valued for their ability to solve problems critical to national interests in areas like defense, energy, finance and science. Supercomputing technology also finds its way into mainstream business; oil and gas companies use it to find reservoirs and Wall Street traders use it for superquick automated trades. Procter & Gamble even uses supercomputers to make sure that Pringles go into cans without breaking.

And typically, research centers with large supercomputers are magnets for top scientific talent, adding significance to the presence of the machines well beyond just cranking through calculations.

Over the last decade, the Chinese have steadily inched up in the rankings of supercomputers. Tianhe-1A stands as the culmination of billions of dollars in investment and scientific development, as China has gone from a computing afterthought to a world technology superpower.

“What is scary about this is that the U.S. dominance in high-performance computing is at risk,” said Wu-chun Feng, a supercomputing expert and professor at Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University. “One could argue that this hits the foundation of our economic future.”

Modern supercomputers are built by combining thousands of small computer servers and using software to turn them into a single entity. In that sense, any organization with enough money and expertise can buy what amount to off-the-shelf components and create a fast machine.

The Chinese system follows that model by linking thousands upon thousands of chips made by the American companies Intel and Nvidia. But the secret sauce behind the system — and the technological achievement — is the interconnect, or networking technology, developed by Chinese researchers that shuttles data back and forth across the smaller computers at breakneck rates, Mr. Dongarra said.

“That technology was built by them,” Mr. Dongarra said. “They are taking supercomputing very seriously and making a deep commitment.”

The Chinese interconnect can handle data at about twice the speed of a common interconnect called InfiniBand used in many supercomputers.

For decades, the United States has developed most of the underlying technology that goes into the massive supercomputers and has built the largest, fastest machines at research laboratories and universities. Some of the top systems simulate the effects of nuclear weapons, while others predict the weather and aid in energy research.

In 2002, the United States lost its crown as supercomputing kingpin for the first time in stunning fashion when Japan unveiled a machine with more horsepower than the top 20 American computers combined. The United States government responded in kind, forming groups to plot a comeback and pouring money into supercomputing projects. The United States regained its leadership status in 2004, and has kept it, until now.

At the computing conference on Thursday in China, the researchers will discuss how they are using the new system for scientific research in fields like astrophysics and bio-molecular modeling. Tianhe-1A, which is housed in a building at the National Supercomputing Center in Tianjin, can perform mathematical operations about 29 million times faster than one of the earliest supercomputers, built in 1976.

For the record, it performs 2.5 times 10 to the 15th power mathematical operations per second.

Mr. Dongarra said a long-running Chinese project to build chips to rival those from Intel and others remained under way and looked promising. “It’s not quite there yet, but it will be in a year or two,” he said.

He also said that in November, when the list comes out, he expected a second Chinese computer to be in the top five, culminating years of investment.

“The Japanese came out of nowhere and really caught people off guard,” Mr. Feng said. “With China, you could see this one coming.”

Steven J. Wallach, a well-known computer designer, played down the importance of taking the top spot on the supercomputer rankings.

“It’s interesting, but it’s like getting to the four-minute mile,” Mr. Wallach said. “The world didn’t stop. This is just a snapshot in time.”

The research labs often spend weeks tuning their systems to perform well on the standard horsepower test. But just because a system can hammer through trillions of calculations per second does not mean it will do well on the specialized jobs that researchers want to use it for, Mr. Wallach added.

The United States has plans in place to make much faster machines out of proprietary components and to advance the software used by these systems so that they are easy for researchers to use. But those computers remain years away, and for now, China is king.

“They want to show they are No. 1 in the world, no matter what it is,” Mr. Wallach said. “I don’t blame them.”

Regarding the point about size of population being a source of national power, this is widely acknowledged. Small countries with small populations will not have the influence comparable to a large country with a large population. Afterall, quantity has a quality all its own.

And in China's case, as the income levels rises, so does its economy and consumption. Even if its per capita GDP is only 25% that of US, its economy will be comparable in size because its population is bigger than the US by ~ 4 times.
 
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