China and Africa

AssassinsMace

AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
name said:
You are not making any sense. To understand if it's soft power or hard power (or a combination of the two) influencing the result, you need to identify the reasons for their choices. In your examples, if Africa chooses China because China gives them tangible benefits that is usually hard power. If they choose China because of merely attraction (eg no tangle benefits) then that's usually soft power.

China's relationship with much of the world is hard power, a business transaction if you will.

The West's relationship with much of the world is a combination of many things hard power and soft power (military attacks, bribes, economic warfare, assassinations, attraction via Hollywood entertainment, Trojan Horse ngos, Trojan Horse churches, rags to riches American dream lie, etc)


This is a separate issue. The West's motivation is to deceive China into opening itself up for attack. The West dangles the carrot of "here's how to improve your soft power" to push bad advice. In this case, they recommend China to change its political system so they can plunder China. They do the same regarding "free press" and "civil society". The real reasons are to make it easier for the imperial west to wage psychological warfare against China under the guise of "independent" media and "civil society" to spread lies, dividing and conquering, subverting the state, waging gender wars, spread white worship, spread self hate, radicalizing people into becoming terrorists, brainwashing people to accept more and more unregulated predatory western capitalism, etc.



I see what you're saying and I ask the reverse. The west made a lot of STEM and artistic achievements. Do you see the world liking them for that? Yes, a lot. With East Asians poisoned with white worship.

Why is that? I suspect a big reason is that the West is able to sell their achievements far better than others. They do so more often and with top notch lies. As an example, they obscure the Middle Eastern origins of the scientific revolution. Unlike the imperial West, I don't see push back from Chinese people to downplay their achievements. That leads to my next point.

The West hates Asians and non whites in general so they constantly resist and crap on Chinese soft power efforts (eg the infamous "at what cost"), but this doesn't make soft power useless (see short list above again and above example). Not everyone on earth hates Asians like the West.

China needs to be better at self promotion and attacking enemies.



That's one possibility. The West seeks to be liked and it has worked greatly for them. White people get to rip off Chinese people with branded goods, constantly use their perceived good image to infiltrate China with Trojan Horses like the CIA's National Endowment for Democracy (NED), pump and dump Chinese women, get cushy esl 'teaching' jobs for speaking their native tongue, get modeling contracts despite being meh, etc.

There is a common theme in your posts about soft power. I think it stems from a misunderstanding. Your posts often imply that China increasing soft power efforts is tantamount to appeasement to the West and conforming to Western standards. That is not my position at all. It's also just one possibility if China pursues soft power in the wrong way.

I'm simply saying that one, soft power is a powerful weapon that can get benefits (see above). Two, China is terrible at soft power. Three, China should improve its abilities, both building soft power for itself and attacking the soft power (it's really more the psychological warfare) of its enemies.

I am not saying ", west says free press is soft power so we should have a free press" or ", West says lgbt is soft power so we should push lgbt"

What I am saying is there are things that make a race, nation, culture more attractive (good aesthetics, humanization, technology, wealth, good entertainment, charismatic people, etc), and less attractive (cringey rhetoric, awful language control, boring news, thick accents, androgynous or girly men, white worship, etc). China should increase and decrease them respectively.

There are areas where China is increasing its soft power - wealth, technology, humanitarian assistance, benevolent foreign policy, etc. But it is terrible at other areas - general aesthetic choices for its men, rhetoric, branding, white worship, etc.
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The West got everything you say through occupation. The British like to brag how the world's language is English. Yeah that's because they fined and caned people on their own lands the British colonized for every word of non English they spoke. Everything they did was forced upon people and then when generations passed and they didn't have to force it anymore they can claim it was chosen by their own free will.

There was that Chinese singer that was arrested for rape but before his troubles he had an album that was about to be released on a certain date but later his record label decided to delay it until his birthday. That was in Asia but the release was still set the same in the US. Because of that, people in Asia flocked to US sites to buy his record. He beat Ariana Grande on the charts that also had a new album released on the same day and he also beat Lady Gaga. When we hear about who's more popular as a world wide musician, it's a lie because when toe-to-toe a Chinese singer beat the supposedly internationally more famous music artists. What is soft power when the US definition has all the power given to those that get to decide to like you? That's why it's worthless. It doesn't do anything for anyone else. Someone can say they like Lady Gaga's music. What does that get them? If Lady Gaga told this person to kill someone for her because he liked her music, will he do it? Most likely not but will he be denied from buying her music if he doesn't? Does it matter? It's all about being liked by them not anyone else. That's what Western soft power is recognizing Western opinion is most important not anyone else's.
 
N

name

New Member
Registered Member
AssassinsMace said:
The West got everything you say through occupation.
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No. China kicked out western imperialists decades ago. Now, they get their tentacles through a great deal of deception (eg CIA doing the same attacks via the National Endowment for Democracy (NED) ). They disarm people through soft power. They disguise themselves as friendly, "democratic", peace loving, "just want to help", "good christians" bla bla and lots of people keep falling for it.

AssassinsMace said:
There was that Chinese singer that was arrested for rape but before his troubles he had an album that was about to be released on a certain date but later his record label decided to delay it until his birthday. That was in Asia but the release was still set the same in the US. Because of that, people in Asia flocked to US sites to buy his record. He beat Ariana Grande on the charts that also had a new album released on the same day and he also beat Lady Gaga. When we hear about who's more popular as a world wide musician, it's a lie because when toe-to-toe a Chinese singer beat the supposedly internationally more famous music artists.
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This is a flawed way of measuring popularity. The west's musicians have a global fan base. Do Chinese artists? Then you have to factor in the population size. China has a giant population which skews the results.

AssassinsMace said:
What is soft power when the US definition has all the power given to those that get to decide to like you? That's why it's worthless. It doesn't do anything for anyone else.
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This is not some law of physics. It only seems that way because of their **current** media strength and tactics (and China's weak defensive minded tactics). I already explained this earlier. The West cunningly craps on other nations and hurts other group's soft power. China doesn't do that to the West. Secondly, the West craps on China but that doesn't mean the entire planet hates China.

Despite usa crapping on China non stop, China's wealth, technology, benevolent foreign policy are still making gains in soft power (slower but still making progress).

Since soft power is very similar to branding, your argument is like saying branding only works for the west. This is obviously false. What the west is exceptional at doing is smear campaigns to harm other brands and China is awful at fighting against it.

AssassinsMace said:
Someone can say they like Lady Gaga's music. What does that get them? If Lady Gaga told this person to kill someone for her because he liked her music, will he do it? Most likely not but will he be denied from buying her music if he doesn't? Does it matter? It's all about being liked by them not anyone else. That's what Western soft power is recognizing Western opinion is most important not anyone else's.
Click to expand...

Your argument is extreme and irrational. It is a form of reductio ad absurdum. Of course it matters. People like Lady Gaga are kol (key opinion influencers). Their messages influence masses of people to behave in ways that western imperialists want. Look at how western celebrities were weaponized against China when the imperial west was trying to split Tibet off China (
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).

I gave a bunch of examples of benefits of soft power. Review them again.
 
AssassinsMace

AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
name said:
No. China kicked out western imperialists decades ago. Now, they get their tentacles through a great deal of deception (eg CIA doing the same attacks via the National Endowment for Democracy (NED) ). They disarm people through soft power. They disguise themselves as friendly, "democratic", peace loving, "just want to help", "good christians" bla bla and lots of people keep falling for it.



This is a flawed way of measuring popularity. The west's musicians have a global fan base. Do Chinese artists? Then you have to factor in the population size. China has a giant population which skews the results.



This is not some law of physics. It only seems that way because of their **current** media strength and tactics (and China's weak defensive minded tactics). I already explained this earlier. The West cunningly craps on other nations and hurts other group's soft power. China doesn't do that to the West. Secondly, the West craps on China but that doesn't mean the entire planet hates China.

Despite usa crapping on China non stop, China's wealth, technology, benevolent foreign policy are still making gains in soft power (slower but still making progress).

Since soft power is very similar to branding, your argument is like saying branding only works for the west. This is obviously false. What the west is exceptional at doing is smear campaigns to harm other brands and China is awful at fighting against it.



Your argument is extreme and irrational. It is a form of reductio ad absurdum. Of course it matters. People like Lady Gaga are kol (key opinion influencers). Their messages influence masses of people to behave in ways that western imperialists want. Look at how western celebrities were weaponized against China when the imperial west was trying to split Tibet off China (
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
).

I gave a bunch of examples of benefits of soft power. Review them again.
Click to expand...
China is the second most powerful country in the world and has number one the US worried and that was all done without being liked. Your weakness is needing others to like you when you don't control that. Like I said before China invented printing. Without printing Westerners would be a bunch of illiterates and not be where they're at today. Do you see the West liking China for that? No. According to you the West is suppose to like China for giving them such a great gift more than music ever will yet they don't like China. And you think that's power when it's someone else that decides your fate...?

If the West has the more important kind of soft power, then why is the West forcing the world to choose between them and China? If they have soft power they wouldn't have to do that and have nothing to worry about China. Yet China occupies space in their minds for free.
 
broadsword

broadsword

Brigadier
name said:
You are not making any sense. To understand if it's soft power or hard power (or a combination of the two) influencing the result, you need to identify the reasons for their choices. In your examples, if Africa chooses China because China gives them tangible benefits that is usually hard power. If they choose China because of merely attraction (eg no tangle benefits) then that's usually soft power.

China's relationship with much of the world is hard power, a business transaction if you will.
Click to expand...

What is soft and hard power? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soft_power#:~:text=This%20soft%20power%20–%20getting%20others,use%20of%20coercion%20and%20payment.
This soft power – getting others to want the outcomes you want – co-opts people rather than coerces them.
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It can be contrasted with '
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', which is the use of coercion and payment.
Click to expand...
So how is a business transaction hard power? If I offer to sell you my genuine Rolex for half the price and you accept it, is it hard power?
I am not forcing you to buy. You can still buy from somebody else.

By your reasoning, if you buy things from Amazon, it is flexing hard power. But you have the choice of not buying from them or buying from Aliexpress or Walmart.
 
AssassinsMace

AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
"name" thinks soft power is people liking you for doing essentially nothing.

Basically every country that sides with the US against China wants to make money from China without having to give anything in return. You're seeing that right now where it's being reported in the media how US companies want to leave China but can't because they'll lose money. Look at that bullsh*t. Is it the zero-tolerance COVID policy? Is it politics? No because they admit they'll lose money that's preventing them from leaving China. It's not their conscience having to do business in a country that violates human rights that makes them want to leave. It's the money they make, not lose, being in China that prevents them from leaving. What's bugging them about doing business in China that's left for them to complain about is they have to bother paying the pittance of the wages to have their products being made for them. That's what Americans do is they so much try to intellectualize everything that comes out of their mouths, they don't think and it blinds them from not realizing it's slavery is what they want. That's what it says.

If they got what they want and the dust settles after generation after generation only knowing this is the way, the West can spin it was always like this thus look at the magnificence of Western soft power.
 
Bellum_Romanum

Bellum_Romanum

Brigadier
Registered Member
name said:
No. China kicked out western imperialists decades ago. Now, they get their tentacles through a great deal of deception (eg CIA doing the same attacks via the National Endowment for Democracy (NED) ). They disarm people through soft power. They disguise themselves as friendly, "democratic", peace loving, "just want to help", "good christians" bla bla and lots of people keep falling for it.



This is a flawed way of measuring popularity. The west's musicians have a global fan base. Do Chinese artists? Then you have to factor in the population size. China has a giant population which skews the results.



This is not some law of physics. It only seems that way because of their **current** media strength and tactics (and China's weak defensive minded tactics). I already explained this earlier. The West cunningly craps on other nations and hurts other group's soft power. China doesn't do that to the West. Secondly, the West craps on China but that doesn't mean the entire planet hates China.

Despite usa crapping on China non stop, China's wealth, technology, benevolent foreign policy are still making gains in soft power (slower but still making progress).

Since soft power is very similar to branding, your argument is like saying branding only works for the west. This is obviously false. What the west is exceptional at doing is smear campaigns to harm other brands and China is awful at fighting against it.



Your argument is extreme and irrational. It is a form of reductio ad absurdum. Of course it matters. People like Lady Gaga are kol (key opinion influencers). Their messages influence masses of people to behave in ways that western imperialists want. Look at how western celebrities were weaponized against China when the imperial west was trying to split Tibet off China (
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
).

I gave a bunch of examples of benefits of soft power. Review them again.
Click to expand...
Has Tibet been pried away from China through the malign use and influence as you say by "world pop celebrities" how's this project working out? The bazillion of celebrity endorsements Hillary Clinton got during her run for the presidency got her 0 mileage from the actual voters in America, and Lady Gaga, Katy Perry had her back...some powers they have huh.

Look, China will always be vilified regardless of it's political system when the leadership and the vast majority of it's people don't want to bend the knee for the West led by American global order. But I do agree with you to a certain extent that China needs to recalibrate it's messaging technique to at least keep other countries that are maybe neutral at best to maintain that view if not, turn it around into a positive territory through the effective use of soft power a.k.a. effective governance system, continued economic resiliency and growth, building and improving high end tech that not only competes with the best from the west but even surpasses western technology meaning Chinese system will become the trend setter, rules establisher and not merely just a follower. In essence, a true bonafide global leader in every sense of the word. Then, and only then, other countries will slowly but surely come to China's orbit willingly and enthusiastically. Chinese should not bother with exporting it's so-called Chinese artists, celebrities when their effect it's marginal at best on enhancing country's prestige and national power.
 
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