Can the US derail 2025?

solarz said:

The problem with your belief is that you think working in a factory is preventing children from attending school, when it's the other way around: those children are working at factories because their families cannot afford to send them to school, whether that's because school itself is too expensive, or because they cannot afford to lose the income that the child provides. Closing factories that employ children would only result in those kids being forced into more dangerous work for less pay.

Click to expand...

My belief is that every child should have the right to education. It's also true that many of the children working in factories are exploited for the exact reasons that you described: because they and their families are desperate and have little to no choice. Not providing that right to their country's children is a clear failure of government. China at least had the sense to understand the limitations of its economy, agriculture and educational system in fullfilling that obligation to its people and instituted the one child policy or family planning as you called it.

Max Demian said:

My belief is that every child should have the right to education. It's also true that many of the children working in factories are exploited for the exact reasons that you described: because they and their families are desperate and have little to no choice. Not providing that right to their country's children is a clear failure of government. China at least had the sense to understand the limitations of its economy, agriculture and educational system in fullfilling that obligation to its people and instituted the one child policy or family planning as you called it.

Click to expand...

Funny that you blame the government for "failure". The government already created the foundation for those families to work their way out of poverty. It is people like you who want to dismantle that foundation in the name of your beliefs.

Max Demian said:

Very few developing countries were historically anywhere near as successful as China, in their journey out of poverty. I would imagine that state support for education had a lot to do with this. Just look at what's happening in India, Bangladesh and the like, where children are working full time from a very young age and as a consequence their workforce has a perpetual lack of educated and skilled workers.

But as to your example. I am curious to know what percentage of families in China could have been like that? What about the ones with just a single child? Those that were able to school their second, third, etc child had to register them and pay hefty fines to the government. They could only do that if they were well off in the first place, had support from their extended family, or were a minority. Or would they knowingly not register their first child? In either case, sounds too exceptional for a generalization. But do correct me where I am wrong.

Click to expand...

Excuse me? What exactly do you think is happening in India? India has her fair share of problems but saying that children work full time from an early age(it's not even a proper argument) is a clear sign of ignorance. There are cases of child laborers but the percentage is very low.

Max Demian said:

Buying products from a company that exploits human labor is tantamount to supporting such practice. I think it's in the interest of all of us to call that behaviour out and stand up to it. Same goes for environmental pollution.

Click to expand...

Like I said before, I have no problem with your chioce of lifestyle. But in these days of global economies, where things are made in a number of countries, some with higher standards whereas others have lower standards.

The question is how do you diffrentiate the "good" from the "bad".

I mean you're typing on your laptop now. And parts in the laptop may be made in a country with lower standards that you find so disagreeable!

Gatekeeper said:

Like I said before, I have no problem with your chioce of lifestyle. But in these days of global economies, where things are made in a number of countries, some with higher standards whereas others have lower standards.

The question is how do you diffrentiate the "good" from the "bad".

I mean you're typing on your laptop now. And parts in the laptop may be made in a country with lower standards that you find so disagreeable!

Click to expand...

Sadly, as consumers sometimes we just don't have the choice. Nor do we have the time and resources to brake down the complex supply chains down to their ever changing sources. In those cases we need to pressure our governments to pass laws that would require companies abroad to conform to what we deem acceptable working conditions. Enforce conformance with regular inspections through institutions such as the International Labor Organization and place the burden of proof on their side.

Max Demian said:

I am not familiar with that particular story. However, I am familiar with stories of Syrian refugee children been exploited in factories in Turkey.

I find it distressing to hear that you support full time child labor. You do realize that by robbing these children of their right to education you are condemning them to a lifetime of poverty?

Click to expand...

Hold on a minute! Where in mind post that says I support full time child labour! Please do not make things up.
I was mearly asking your opinon on a difficult situation I heard about, and at the time I was a student of economics, and our lecturer was asking the same question to us.

It was a difficult chioce, as on the one hand, and it boils down to your upbringing, no one is child labour is acceptable, but leaving a family going hungary is not acceptable either!

Just because I choose food and shelter for the family doesn't mean I'm for child labour. Likewise you choose to send the child to school doesn't mean you would like to see the family starve or without a place call home!

All I can say is from the comfort of our armchairs, it is easy to have high standards!

Me, having been brought up in poverty where my older brothers having to sacrificed their education in favour of mine, and help to feed the family. I know which I would choose.

Let's not forget, it was only 40 years ago the UK allowed 14 year olds to paericioate in the labour force! So why are we casting a criticle eye over developing countries development.

And lastly, most of the "exploitation" is done by multi- national companies based in the west!

Max Demian said:

Sadly, as consumers sometimes we just don't have the choice. Nor do we have the time and resources to brake down the complex supply chains down to their ever changing sources. In those cases we need to pressure our governments to pass laws that would require companies abroad to conform to what we deem acceptable working conditions. Enforce conformance with regular inspections through institutions such as the International Labor Organization and place the burden of proof on their side.

Click to expand...

Well, call me a pessimist! good luck with that!

Gatekeeper said:

Hold on a minute! Where in mind post that says I support full time child labour! Please do not make things up.
I was mearly asking your opinon on a difficult situation I heard about, and at the time I was a student of economics, and our lecturer was asking the same question to us.

Click to expand...

This is what you had to say on the subject:

Gatekeeper said:

Anyway, the upshot was Nike decided the publicity was bad and decided to do something about it leaving hundreds of family that depends on their "child's income" in poverty. Hope they sleep well at night, these moral liberal elite.

Click to expand...

It sounded a lot like you were blaming the UK "liberal elite" for their criticism of child labor. Although you didn't elaborate exactly what the company did in response? And let's make no mistake about it: the poor people in Turkey have only their government to blame for their poverty. Of course, Nike should've been held accountable for having children manufacturing its wares.

Gatekeeper said:

And lastly, most of the "exploitation" is done by multi- national companies based in the west!

Click to expand...

Maybe you would care to back that up with some data? In the meantime I can point out that quite a few companies in Taiwan and South Korea have been found guilty of worker exploitation across Asia. But the worst often occurs within the local companies that sell on the domestic markets.

Continuation to #88
Just for clarity, I am not against part time work of children aged 12 and older. As long as the work is safe, supervised and does not interfere with their studies. I think it can be rather educational. This can be babysitting, tending shelves in supermarkerts, cleaning, etc.

What I proposed as a measure, is hardly original or new. In fact a number of countries in Europe have introduced or are in the process of introducing such legislation:

Max Demian said:

This is what you had to say on the subject:

It sounded a lot like you were blaming the UK "liberal elite" for their criticism of child labor. Although you didn't elaborate exactly what the company did in response? And let's make no mistake about it: the poor people in Turkey have only their government to blame for their poverty. Of course, Nike should've been held accountable for having children manufacturing its wares.


Maybe you would care to back that with some data? In the meantime I can point out that quite a few companies in Taiwan and South Korea have been found guilty of worker exploitation across Asia. But the worst often occurs within the local companies that sell on the domestic markets.

Click to expand...

Come on, you are clutching at straws here. Look, we can disagree with each other, and hold different views. That's fine, it's what debating is all about. But please don't put words in my mouth.

You even re-quoted my post. And if you read it carefully you would see at no time, I have said "I SUPPORT CHILD LABOUR"! So please at least have the courtesy to acknowledge that instead of saying that "it sound like I'm blaming the UK elite".

Even if I was, it still doesn't take away from the fact "I support child labour"! I do expect better from someone with such high standards!

And with regards to companies from Taiwan and South korea exploiting workers, yes I agreed. But I never said exploitation was unique to a particular nation!

With regards to backing up with some data about multi-nationals exploiting developing nations.

In a word, NO! It was years when I was students researching multi-nationals. And theres loads of infomation out there, one only got to google it. And quite frankly, I don't really care if you don't believe me, and take my words on it.

You carry on living in your world devoid of all items made from countries with lower standards than yours!

Just make sure you don't accused others with things they haven't said!