Building a low cost stealth fighter in a tight schedule.

man overbored said:

I know this is complete fiction and I know some of the reasons why but darned if I'm going to be the guy who tells you! You could copy the external shape faithfully and never come close to the RCS reduction of the actual B-2. There is a lot of fun going on under that smooth black skin. Have fun speculating. Mahalo.

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Well, I don't know what you trying to say? Add some technical stuffs contribution, would you?
B-2 uses alot of RAM whereas F-22 every little, that's a fact.
read carefully of what I wrote. When did I say copying the B-2??

man overbored said:

, the target will have a difficult time detecting the F-22. A very clever technique that copying the shape of the F-22 will not replicate will it. Ah, if only aerospace engineering was so simple. Believe me it is not!

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Avoiding detection of its LPI radar and its' reduction of radar RCS on enemy radar screen are two different subjects. Dude, don't mix the two. you are confused.

No double posting, use the EDIT button!

lilzz said:

Avoiding detection of its LPI radar and its' reduction of radar RCS on enemy radar screen are two different subjects. Dude, don't mix the two. you are confused.

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Number one, duplicating the external shape of the F-22 will not guarantee achieving anything near it's RCS. There are a lot of passive and active features under the skin, and the paint is even tuned to suppress frequencies not otherwise suppressed by airframe and materials characteristics. What is underneath the skin and the materials are highly classified, but be certain external shape is not the primary determinate. If it were then everyone would be flying stealth fighters.
The point about the radar is that regardless of how well developed the stealth characterists of the airframe are, the radar alone could give the game away. A stealthy radar is part and parcel of the complete package. There are a lot of ways to construct what falls into the rubric of a spread spectrum radar, including those whose wave forms may appear to be white noise or pink noise to a receiver. Combined with frequency agility this could be very tough to detect. Only the transmitter will know with precision what the original wave form looks like to know what the reflection received is. Other receivers will detect fleeting ( microsecond ) transmissions of what will appear to be noise as these transmissions hop frequencies.

man overbored said:

Number one, duplicating the external shape of the F-22 will not guarantee achieving anything near it's RCS. There are a lot of passive and active features under the skin, and the paint is even tuned to suppress frequencies not otherwise suppressed by airframe and materials characteristics. What is underneath the skin and the materials are highly classified.

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Number one? well, that's only your opinion.

DO you read the article "understanding stealth" I post online
suppress frequencies?? R U implying F-22 is using special RAM overall its frame. False.

Radar absorbant materials, or RAM is applied sparingly on the F-22 airframe as opposed to the entire airframe on the F-117. This is because designers have incorporated curves on crucial surfaces and edges, which lessens the need for RAM.

So R U saying those areas on F-22 /wo the special material would get exposed??
well, what you saying clearly contradict what the source I am quoting.




here you go. Clearly states F-22 doesn't need much RAM for frequency suppression.

For more technical discussions, pls backup your statements with some credible sources.


Edited. Calm down. No need to act agitated or insulted. He is only stating his opinions in a respectable manner and I expect you do the same. Now go on with the discussion. -crobato

lilzz said:

Number one? well, that's only your opinion.

DO you read the article "understanding stealth" I post online
suppress frequencies?? R U implying F-22 is using special RAM overall its frame. False.

Radar absorbant materials, or RAM is applied sparingly on the F-22 airframe as opposed to the entire airframe on the F-117. This is because designers have incorporated curves on crucial surfaces and edges, which lessens the need for RAM.

So R U saying those areas on F-22 /wo the special material would get exposed??
well, what you saying clearly contradict what the source I am quoting.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

here you go. Clearly states F-22 doesn't need much RAM for frequency suppression.

For more technical discussions, pls backup your statements with some credible sources.


Edited. Calm down. No need to act agitated or insulted. He is only stating his opinions in a respectable manner and I expect you do the same. Now go on with the discussion. -crobato

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Global Security has been wrong before. Example. If you ever read anywhere that Harpoons were used in Operation Praying Mantis, and you will see this everywhere, I know for a fact this is incorrect. We ( our squadron ) was given the play by play of that entire operation, detailed discussions of the ordinance involved, the limitations, etc. One point we all had a chuckle at was the choice the Navy made not to use Harpoon. Since the Iranian's did not have anything with a range greater than 25nm it was decided to use Standard SM-2 missiles in their anti-surface mode at one quarter the cost per round of a Harpoon. We depressed the Mk-13 launchers on our ships and fired the missiles in a level attitude. It worked like a charm and we disabled some Iranian frigates enough for A-6's to complete the job with Mavericks and iron bombs. The moral of the story is not to believe everything in Global Security, they get it wrong.
Under the skin of a stealth aircraft there is a lot that doesn't meet the eye. Coatings are one of these. The F-22 and F-35 have very specific paints, and these are tuned to the individual airframe ( and not tuned to any reasonable defense budget but I digress ). Put F-35 paint on an F-22 and you loose desirable stealth characteristics. You might have forgotten that with the F-35, many of the buyers will not receive all of the low observable features the US and UK will receive. For a while the Aussies were griping to us about being cut out of all the low observable features after there was some indication a person or persons in Australia's defense establishment had questionable associations with China. Shape alone is not the determinate of stealth, it is only one part. Aside from paints there other features. Consider active cancelling headphones and certain commercial radios for a vague idea of what I'm alluding too.

man overbored said:

Under the skin of a stealth aircraft there is a lot that doesn't meet the eye. Coatings are one of these. The F-22 and F-35 have very specific paints, and these are tuned to the individual airframe ( and not tuned to any reasonable defense budget but I digress ). Put F-35 paint on an F-22 and you loose desirable stealth characteristics. .

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Pls provide a link to backup your comments. I not so interest in random personal opinion.

radar absorbing paint is highly frequency dependent. Now how you able to have a paint to cover you from 1hz to 20Ghz ???? As you know there are different type of radar seraching waves. pls answer this question.



The above is from marietta scientific consulting firm.


I give you 2 credible sources which in sync with the idea the shape of the plane is most important factors in stealth, RAM materials are just supplements.

I am interest to see the source that says F-22 has the paint whereas th F-35 doesn't therefore its stealth is drastically reduced. and what range of frequency they talk about.

Because in my opinion, F-22's mid and high frequency evasion is entirely depend on its shape , line and curve, its little used RAM is to supplement the low frequency evasion portion. This makes sense bcause RAM can only works at certain frequency.

The thickness of the RAM also determines the frequency it absorbs. It cannot absorb wavelengths longer than its thickness. Dealing with low frequency can mean having really thick, more like a layer, of RAM, and I don't think that's possible. If you are working against low frequency, you have to work with shape.

lilzz said:

Pls provide a link to backup your comments. I not so interest in random personal opinion.

radar absorbing paint is highly frequency dependent. Now how you able to have a paint to cover you from 1hz to 20Ghz ???? As you know there are different type of radar seraching waves. pls answer this question.

[qimg]http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/7038/wav2qo5.jpg[/qimg]

The above is from marietta scientific consulting firm.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

I give you 2 credible sources which in sync with the idea the shape of the plane is most important factors in stealth, RAM materials are just supplements.

I am interest to see the source that says F-22 has the paint whereas th F-35 doesn't therefore its stealth is drastically reduced. and what range of frequency they talk about.

Because in my opinion, F-22's mid and high frequency evasion is entirely depend on its shape , line and curve, its little used RAM is to supplement the low frequency evasion portion. This makes sense bcause RAM can only works at certain frequency.

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Read up on the subject of "active quieting" as used in certain high end pilot's headsets and you will start to see what I am alluding to. The military application is much more complex.

From this link on the F-35 read the paragraph "advenced stealth"



Here is more:



These aircraft manipulate the electomagnetic spectrum to achieve certain aspects of their stealth.

Allies however will receive less low observables than US forces will



Their plane will look the same but will be less stealthy. Shape alone does not determine stealth.