Britian may consider buying 150 French jets for Navy

MrClean said:

I really doubt that anyone can say that for sure. The Eurofighter and Rafale are both excellent aircraft in both close in combat and BVR. You ask me the EF is the better of the two. But I don't think that you can say that it can beat another aircraft that it will probably never face in a real situation anyway. The EF and Rafale are both very maneuverable, but is there any proof that they are any more agile than the JSF that has TVC? Has there been any mock dogfights? I think not.

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Did you have seen the aerodynamic profile of the JSF ? compaired to the Typhoon or Rafale it don't have any advantage, that's why they inclued the TVC, and the performances of the plane will not surpass the F-16.

MrClean said:

Also, I have heard about the recent tension over the JSF and it's supposed problem with it's stealth, and how that pissed off the UK and Australians. But still, the last I've heard, the JSFs 'curved stealth' tech still makes it's RCS smaller than that of the F-117. How much stealthier do you need it really? In the first Gulf War, the Nighthawk flew something like 3-4% of the missions, but accounted for over 25% of the successfully destryed targets. Not one was ever shot down. They were hardly ever detected on the Iraqi radar, if ever.

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The US used their EW planes a lot during this War, indeed, the Iraqi Air Defence was blind due to the extensive use of EF-111 Raven and EA-6B Prowler. The F-4 Wild Weasel did their mission very well too, after the road was opened to bomber. During the Allied Force operation, it was another story...

MrClean said:

If the JSF has better stealth than that... Than all I can say is that the EF might have superior maneuverability, but you can't shoot what you can't see. All the JSF will have to do is stay out of visual range, and wait for some back up from his Raptor or Eagle-E buddies, or he could just launch one of his many possible AMRAAMS or Sidewinder-X.

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The EF get a PIRATE IRST/FLIR, with this, it can see BVR targets, the IR radiations are very hard to reduce on a plane, and this combined to IIR systems (target appearance recognition) the JSF can be stealth to radars but not to good IRST/FLIR.

MrClean said:

I still have yet to see any proof that any of these planes are better than any other. If you ask me they are all very capable next-generation aircraft. IMO, they could all three easily fit in the #2 spot of best air superiority fighters, right behind the F-22.

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So refer to previous paragraph I'm so sorry to destroy your arguments...:rofl:

Refering to comparing aircraft...Who knows for sure? Unless these aircraft ever face off in a real combat situation we will never know for sure.

Like I said previously ..I think the British are posturing. This JSF project is very important to them for the future of their new Queen Elizbeth class CV's. So much time,energy and probally money has been invested. I know they don't want to waste those efforts. I think the models they recieve should be the equal of the US side.

About the British CVF, It will be compatible with Rafale A/C because France choosen the British CVF Project and not the Thales PA2 Project.

The American refusal to share technology means that if one of the JSFs needed repairs, the work would have to be carried out in America.

It would also mean British forces would not have the right codes to arm the planes if they wanted to use them for missions not approved by the Pentagon.

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This is bullshit, the no transfer is mainly around key system that can be brought and stored for repairs, you don't have to ship them back. and the computer codes denied are softcode which means while you can't armed the plane with new weapon system but you can still use the F35 to hit even US bases if you wanted to... whoever wrote the article did not even understand what was being discussed, and is virtually making up these problems.

you can see why UK doesn't like the deal, because it means they have to go back to US to intergrate a new weapon with the plane, this limits almost completely, UK ablility to customize the plane without sharing information with the US...

for an example: many planes china brought from russia also does not come with the source code for the weapon system. as russia wants to sell it's fighter missile to china; without the ability to armed them with chinese missile, china had to buy and stockpile them from the russian...

Twix101 said:

About the British CVF, It will be compatible with Rafale A/C because France choosen the British CVF Project and not the Thales PA2 Project.

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IIRC while France decided to join UK project British version lacks catapults so it would not be compatible whit Rafale… I may be wrong since I didn’t look at CVF development lately and CVF is still project under development but last time I check CVF had ski ramp planed…

Twix101 said:

About the cost of Rafale, this the cost with development, but if Britain buies Rafale, they will pay 45M€ (nearly 58M$) for each plane.

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there was an article on AFM a while back, which basically stated an empty Rafale would cost a customer 66 million and one that is fully equipped with all the sensors and missiles (total cost) would cost 145 million per unit. At the same time, JSF's cost has also shot up considerably (mentionned as 130 million for the B version on WAB). So neither are cheap, so it comes down to performance.

About Stealth, the Rafale EW system include modules to reduce significaly the SAR of the plane, same if it got external payload. The OSF (IRST/FLIR, LASER/TV system) can be a deadly advantage agaisnt the JSF, indeed, with the combination of the MICA IR (with can be used as a Medium range missile) the pane can engage target without be repeared due to radar emissions.

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didn't we talk about this before about the reduced heat signature of stealth planes?

The second customer of the F-35B will be the USMC, they have to replace the AV-8B+.

So...That's all.

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F-35B might be cancelled if all they have is USMC.

Twix101 said:

Did you have seen the aerodynamic profile of the JSF ? compaired to the Typhoon or Rafale it don't have any advantage, that's why they inclued the TVC, and the performances of the plane will not surpass the F-16.

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F-35's with TVC? That's not the case. The B-version will of course have a swivle nozzle for hovering flight, but it will not be TVC for normal forward flight. As to its performance, it probably won't exceed any of the planes you mentioned in manoeuverability, but that is a very limited way of looking at performance, especially for military A/C. Range, rate of climb, acceleration, and more generally survivability, maintainability and lethality all have to be considered. Whether or not an IRST system can see it from long off or not, its radar stealth still goes a long way to making it more survivable than non-stealth A/C.

JSF program is not going as planned. VSTOL version is said to be overweight and during vertical landing and takeoff it melted aluminum sheets (used for temporary runways). Means it can also harm carrier decks.

Its project management is not as good as compared to F22 and other US projects.

crazyinsane105 said:

Above that, why go for JSF when you have the EF Typhoon or even the Rafale? The JSF can't stand against those two fighters anyday.

I really don't see why the US is fretting over this stealth tech issue. I mean, there are British subs armed with US made Trident nuclear missiles for God sakes! The US would rather trust the British with American made Trident missiles rather than stealth tech? It just doesn't make any sense to me whatsoever.

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just wondering, were they getting the vertical take off ones or short take off??

ahho said:

just wondering, were they getting the vertical take off ones or short take off??

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The Brits plan to aquire the verticle takeoff version, not the USN carrier variant.

JSF program is not going as planned. VSTOL version is said to be overweight and during vertical landing and takeoff it melted aluminum sheets (used for temporary runways). Means it can also harm carrier decks.

Its project management is not as good as compared to F22 and other US projects.

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There have been some setbacks in the program, which is to be expected for any major A/C development of this scope (EF, Rafael had plenty of problems throughout their development). The weight issue came to light a few years ago and has been largely taken care of. Now both engines the P&W F135 and GE/RR F136 are coming under more scrutiny. F135 is said to run 190°F too hot at some part of the core and F136 is constantly threatened with cancellation from either Pentagon or US Congress. Then there are the complex issues associated with the international nature of the program.

So it is definitely a challenge, but there is a real potential for the sale of up to and over 4000 A/C over the life of the program. That is huge, and I think management at Lockheed, BAE, P&W, GE, RR, etc. will make the program work in the end and have a very good A/C to offer.