Brazil jumps on PAK FA

AssassinsMace

AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
It sounds like the rumors of the details of the deal that miffed India are true. Russia wanted India to be more of investor than partner sharing the technology. One wouldn't want to flip the bill and then have the other side have control of all the key components. Brazil entering into the mix makes the investment less risky. That's if it's really only going to cost 20 billion to develop.
 
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Infra_Man99

Banned Idiot
Finn McCool said:
Venezuela's recent arms purchases are triggering an arms spending spree in South America; the Columbians purchased Kifrs from Israel, Peru and perhaps Chile have expressed interest in purchasing weapons, not necessarily fighter aircraft though. Brazil's air force is becoming obsolete anyway, 12 Mirage 2000s aren't going to cut it for a nation that size. Brazil is looking to become the leader of the continent (whether they want to share that role with Venezuela simply to indulge Venezuela' national Napoleon-complex is questionable), so they need to clearly be militarily dominant.

Rejecting the F-35 in favor of the PAK-FA is a huge mistake for Brazil. The PAK-FA might be a better plane, but the F-35 will be available in one or two years, not 6 or more (my estimate) like the PAK-FA. Most importantly, the Brazilian Navy needs replacements for its A-4s on the Sao Paulo. The F-35C with VTOL capability, could fill that role and make the Sao Paulo a viable carrier for years to come, as well as work of a smaller replacement carrier in the future. The PAK-FA can do none of that, and rejecting the F-35 will make it harder for the Brazilian Navy to get its hands on a replacement air wing.
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According to US news, you are correct. However, news from most South American nations say that South America wants to distance itself from the US. Colombia is the only nation willing to extend relations with the US.

According to some US news, Venezuela is starting an arms race in South America. According to some South American news and political agreements, Venezuela is working with Brazil to create a unified South America with a potent military, a healthy economy, and a united political system. It is a matter of perspective, but the truth will reveal itself eventually: is Venezuela threatening South America or is Venezuela working with Brazil to lead South American to a greater future?

This partially explains why Brazil rather invests in the PAK FA than the F-35. This is a very significant investment, but the reasons are unclear.
 
planeman

planeman

Senior Member
VIP Professional
Brazil is the only country in South America with a credible military aero industry, but since the only modest success of the AMX they need another joint project to bolster it. I guess US wasn't interested in sharing JSF with Brazil companies, or at least not on Brazil's terms, so PAK-FA would be popular with the defense industry in Brazil. They could manufacture them for other south american countries etc. This is all guesswork, but tell me where it sounds wrong. :)
 
Finn McCool

Finn McCool

Captain
Registered Member
Infra_Man99 said:
It is a matter of perspective, but the truth will reveal itself eventually: is Venezuela threatening South America or is Venezuela working with Brazil to lead South American to a greater future?
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They have the ability to do that; unfortunately I don't think that Chavez is a capable-enough leader to bring that about. A lot what your saying rests on the idea that Chavez has made major improvements in the lives of Venezuela's poor, and has instituted sound domestic policies. That seems to be an accepted fact, but he hasn't, in fact the poverty rate was lower before he came to power IIRC. There was an article to that affect in the last issue of Foreign Affairs.

According to some US news, Venezuela is starting an arms race in South America.
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I don't know if that's "According to US news". Venezuela was the first country in South America to make a major arms purchase in recent years. The US media does love to make Chavez out to be alternately a warmonger and a fool, but that is simply chronology. Anyway this is all offtopic.

So what is India's status on the PAK-FA, in, out, uncertain? Now that Brazil is onboard, might Venezuela come too as an investment partner?
 
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Vlad Plasmius

Junior Member
There is definitely some significance to Brazil joining the PAK FA project. One reason is this may invite other countries to jump onto the project. Countries I think Russia would likely pursue this with would be Malaysia, Indonesia, perhaps Venezuela, and they may decide to involve CSTO member states in the project as well.

Of course it's possible other nations could get involved.

Also the recent proposal for a South American Defense Council shows South America, in particular Brazil, is becoming another power center attempting to offset US dominance.
 
Finn McCool

Finn McCool

Captain
Registered Member
Vlad Plasmius said:
Countries I think Russia would likely pursue this with would be Malaysia, Indonesia, perhaps Venezuela, and they may decide to involve CSTO member states in the project as well.
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If things end up going that way the PAK-FA might end up being a sort of F-35 "for the rest"; the project would mirror the F-35 in that it would be dominated by one country (Russia) with lots of other investors making limited contributions. Which aircraft ends up the better final product is anyone's guess.

But this is very speculative considering we've not even seen any sort of a prototype for the PAK-FA yet.
 
planeman

planeman

Senior Member
VIP Professional
Finn McCool said:
Venezuela was the first country in South America to make a major arms purchase in recent years. The US media does love to make Chavez out to be alternately a warmonger and a fool, but that is simply chronology.
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I'd say Chilean F-16s deal contradicts your chronology. Also Brazil's FX comp goes back further. And before that Peru was accused of starting an arms race by buying AA-12 Adders. Venezuela may have heated things up, but their purchases are noteworthy more for their supplier of choice, and the political emphasis placed on it by US, than anything else. In fact you could argue that US press started an arms race in S.America buy getting their knickers in a twist about the Flanker deal.
 
SteelBird

SteelBird

Colonel
An interesting question comes to my mind; why China is never linked to the PAK-FA? Does China has any project comparable to PAK-FA? I doubt about their J-xx program...
 
Finn McCool

Finn McCool

Captain
Registered Member
SteelBird said:
An interesting question comes to my mind; why China is never linked to the PAK-FA? Does China has any project comparable to PAK-FA? I doubt about their J-xx program...
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China certainly has some program going for a 5th gen fighter. We simply don't know any details; J-XX is just the designation we give it.

I'd say Chilean F-16s del contradicts your chronology.
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I had a feeling that some South American country had purchased F-16s...
 
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