Bison / J-7 questions

ArjunMk1

Junior Member
Complete specs abt Mig 21 Bison !!!



The Indian Ministry of Defence initially banked on the Light Combat Aircraft program to design a replacement for the huge inventory of MiG-21s that would need to be phased out towards the latter half of the 90s and the early years of the 21st century. But with the impending delays in the LCA program it became clear that an interim measure has to be implemented. Upgrading a select number of the MiG-21s with better avionics and armament to make them more compatible in today’s hostile EW rich environment could do this. Thus was borne the MiG-21-93 program. It was proposed to extend the Total Technical Life (TTL) of the MiG-21Bis from the current level of 2400 Hours as well as Upgrade the avionic capabilities of the existing aircraft. The Russian Counterpart – MiG MAPO indicated in August 91 that an upgrade of the MiG-21 can be carried out. After a joint study, it was decided to award the contract for upgradation to MiG-MAPO in in March 1994.

The proposal for 125 MiG Bis aircraft with an option to upgrade 50 more aircraft at a total cost of US$ 626 million was cleared in January 1996. The upgrade was to include major modifications by MiG-MAPO which would incorporate Western Avionics as well as indigenously developed components. Besides the major airframe, weapons and radar contract with MiG, a contract with Sextant was signed for the Inertial navigation System (INS), with HAL for subsequent upgradation of the aircraft, with NAL for fatigue testing and studies in TTL Extension and with BEL for development of the Tarang Radar warning Receiver (RWR).

HAL dispatched two aircraft (C-2777 and C-2769) to Russia in May 1996 for modification. However the Air Force team could only reach in October 96.The schedule was to upgrade about 30 aircraft by end of the financial year in 1999, followed by 40 aircraft in the subsequent years. The complete upgradation of the 125 aircraft and the additional option of 50 were to be completed by March 2003. However the project got delayed to the extent of three years. Non-Supply of documentation, revision of Bill of Materials and delays in integration of weapons and flight-testing resulted in these delays. The flight-testing and combat evaluation of the aircraft, which was scheduled to be completed by April 1998 was completed only by September 2000 after a delay of 30 months. The Russians in turn allege problems in payments by HAL as well as Low reliability in components supplied by the Indian firms.

The development of the RWR system was entrusted to Advanced Systems Integration and Evaluation Organisation (ASIEO) with an objective to develop a compact Advanced Radar Warning Receiver system for fighter aircraft – which could be used not only for the upgraded MiG-21 but also in other aircraft like the MiG-27 and Sukhoi-30. Two systems were supplied directly to MiG MAPO by April 98 , a delay of almost one year. Further delays were complicated in the delays in supply of the INS system.

However a major handicap of the project was that the study to find out the feasibility of the extension of TTL was not completed on time. It is believed this study, which was subcontracted to NAL in Bangalore was completed only in the middle of 2002. It was also charged in a report by the Comptroller and Auditor General of India (CAG) , a government watchdog body that audits the expenditure on all financial expenditure in India that the Russian contractors had gone back on technology transfer without any royalty clause. The report also said that similar technology transfer agreements for avionic systems had also not been finalised with western vendors, which could pose a difficulty in repair and overhaul of the upgraded fighters.

Induction progress

The first two aircraft (C-2777 and C-2769) which were upgraded in Russia, did their first test flight on October 6th, 1998. Trials of the medium-range Vympel R-73RDM2 and the Beyond Visual Range (BVR) Vympel R-77/RVV-AEE air-to-air missiles were conducted in February 1999. The formidable combination of the Phazatron Kopyo (Spear) light weight multi-mode radar with that of the Missiles proved a success, the subsonic target drone aircraft being destroyed by a R-77 fired from 6km away. In all the two prototypes were believed to have done nearly 200 test flights.

After the two prototype aircraft have returned to India in July 2001, the HAL manufacture of the Upgraded MiGs from the supplied kits commenced. The first HAL built MiG-21 commenced taxi trials on August 27th , 2001. The first test flights of the HAL upgraded MiG-21Bis (C-2794) happened on August 31st, 2001. As more and more Aircraft were being upgraded, the privilege of being the first unit to fly these 21st century MiG-21s went to the Cobras. Somewhere around this time the decision to add a Suffix ‘U’ to the Alphabetical portion of the Serial was taken – to differentiate from the earlier Bis. Thus C-2794 would become CU-2794 etc.

Wg Cdr RK Dhir, who had been associated with the UPG program arrived from Russia to take command of the Squadron on July 23rd, 2001. The Cobras got a glimpse of their first UPG, the HAL Assembled one, when it came here in September. It was bought there to take part in the AFD 2001 Parade at Palam in October. The Indian and International media got thier first close glimpse of the aircraft on this occasion.

By the end of the year, five pilots were selected for the Conversion course and sent to Bangalore for Simulator training and to Ojhar for flying training. At that time the pilots referred to the UPG as ‘BUG’ - abbreviation for Bison Up Grade. Conversion training at Bangalore was ten ‘sorties’ on the Systems Integration Rig – the simulator. Thereon the pilots moved to Ozhar AFS at Nashik and flew five sorties each on the UPG.

The pilots termed the aircraft as a ‘revelation’ – They were most impressed by the avionics and new systems, though the airframe and engine were the same. All five pilots reported the change as ‘fantastic’.



In an interview with the filming team, the CO, Wg Cdr Dhir emphasized the ‘new’ features of the aircraft, including its ability to use BVR missiles like the R-77 and the usage of Standoff Weapons like the KAB 500, incidentally both of which were displayed on the Bison’s Weapon stations to the filming team (or for any media team) for the first time. The CO was all praise for the improved visibility of the new aircraft and the much simpler workload on the pilot due to the improved avionics.

One of the first things that we noticed are the external features that differentiate the Bison from the Bis. The earlier Bis had a very restrictive view in terms of the Cockpit. The older fixed windshield has been replaced with a new ‘frame less’ Windshield . The older side opening Canopy with a prominent rear view mirror arrangement in the middle of the Perspex has been replaced with a clear bubble canopy which had semicircle rear view mirrors fitted to the rim, offering a much better view. The Conformal ECM Dispensing Systems, which are installed over the wingroot, are another distinguishing feature. Last is the RWR Antennae that have been put on the vertical fin. Something that we never got to see, but is another significant upgrade to the aircraft is the new Helmet Mounted Sighting System, which enables the pilot to launch an Air to Air Missile at off bore angles, simply by turning his head towards the target.
 

ArjunMk1

Junior Member
Visual difference :

1.Cockpit :

Mig21Bison Cockpit :
MiG08.jpg


Mig21 Bis Cockpit
C-1171-Cockpit.jpg


2. Visibility :

Mig 21bison has enhanced visibility, due to all glass cockpit
index.html


Mig21 bis cockpit windows :
MiG03.jpg
 

MIGleader

Banned Idiot
im assuming the bison has curved front windsheild like the j-7g, right?(the pic doesnt work)

why dont we pull up some j-7 cocpits too?
J-7E_%26_F-7MG_%28left%29%2C_F-7PG_%28middle%29%2C_J-7G_%28right%29.jpg


left: j-7e, middle: j-7mg(g), right: j-7pg
 

sumdud

Senior Member
VIP Professional
??? We are comparing the J-7 though, not the Bis......

The J-7E/G can do everything the Bis can do.

I'd pick the J-7G. After all, even when the Bison can use the Adder, it's not at full range, but only about 20km more I think.

The question/problem is that we can't get a word on the J-7G's ability to launch PL-11 and 12s.
 

ArjunMk1

Junior Member
MIGleader said:
im assuming the bison has curved front windsheild like the j-7g, right?(the pic doesnt work)

why dont we pull up some j-7 cocpits too?
J-7E_%26_F-7MG_%28left%29%2C_F-7PG_%28middle%29%2C_J-7G_%28right%29.jpg


left: j-7e, middle: j-7mg(g), right: j-7pg


Heres the image of Bison's windshield

MiG-21l1.jpg
 

MIGleader

Banned Idiot
i really dont think a bison and j-7 would fight eachother...after all, arnt they both intercpetors?

as for nonpilots question, china would use neither j-7 or j-8(both interceptors) in conjunction with flankers. more like j-10s.
btw, what kind of engine does the bison use?
 

SteelBird

Colonel
one small question: how do u guy post picture @ original size? i use attachment, but pictures are small, viewers need to enlarge it.

i saw a picture of and F-7 (MiG 21) which taking off vertically. this sound fun! i'm not sure if this is a real picture.
 
Last edited:

Gollevainen

Colonel
VIP Professional
Registered Member
There's a clear (at least in my obinion) istructions for pictureposting in annoucment seen over every forum.

Also the plane in your picture is SOVIET MiG-21PD, a STOL (not VTOL) testing aircraft fitted wiht RD-36 liftjets, similars as in Yak-38. Soviets fitted these liftjets in other planes as well for same purposes, including MiG-23-01, a early prototype of MiG-23 without VG wings, T-6, a similar non-VG prototype of Su-24 and also to T-58, a converted Su-15. The test showed that liftengines are not very practical solutions to improve STOL ability of fighting aircraft as they increased considerably the deathweight, taked space from the fuel and also added the fule consumption. The liftjets exhaust nozzles were mounted in the best possiple place for weapon carrying, the centre of the fuslage so the program was stopped and other solutions were made instead.
 

sumdud

Senior Member
VIP Professional
Heh? The imagination of the concept itself being done on a MiG-21 is unimaginable. That'll seriously ruin the plane's structure and airflow......

Well, the Fishbed was designed to take some rough ground, so it doesn't really need the STOL. (Its weight is low, don't think it needs a long runway.)

So no need for that.

But is the Fishbed big enough to fit, let's say, 7 HP?
 

SteelBird

Colonel
Hi, Guy. why don't you just simply tell me where to get the instruction for posting pictures. you can see that i'm a new member to this forum, actually, i'm new to all forum. i can't even find FAQ on this site.

Gollevainen said:
There's a clear (at least in my obinion) istructions for pictureposting in annoucment seen over every forum.

Also the plane in your picture is SOVIET MiG-21PD, a STOL (not VTOL) testing aircraft fitted wiht RD-36 liftjets, similars as in Yak-38. Soviets fitted these liftjets in other planes as well for same purposes, including MiG-23-01, a early prototype of MiG-23 without VG wings, T-6, a similar non-VG prototype of Su-24 and also to T-58, a converted Su-15. The test showed that liftengines are not very practical solutions to improve STOL ability of fighting aircraft as they increased considerably the deathweight, taked space from the fuel and also added the fule consumption. The liftjets exhaust nozzles were mounted in the best possiple place for weapon carrying, the centre of the fuslage so the program was stopped and other solutions were made instead.
 
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