Beijing Confronts Long-Standing Weakness in ASW

Jeff Head

General
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Intelligence Quarterly said:
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Observers of China’s naval development generally accept that Chinese anti-submarine warfare (ASW) remains an Achilles’ Heel of the otherwise highly methodical and quite remarkable evolution of Chinese maritime power. While Beijing will soon be able to boast about its first aircraft carrier and continues to upgrade an already respectable array of lethal anti-ship cruise missiles (ASCMs), the Chinese fleet nevertheless remains acutely vulnerable to submarine attack. The July 2011 issue ofXiandai Jianchuan [Modern Ships] ran under the cover story of “The ASW Crisis of China’s Aircraft Carrier,” suggesting Chinese naval analysts appreciate this weakness. Moreover, a Chinese Navy captain writing in the same journal demonstrated the PLA Navy’s concern with the U.S. Navy submarine force when he described the deployment of one of America’s newest nuclear attack submarines to the western Pacific as an “event of no small significance” for the regional security situation.

Symbolic of China’s major weakness in ASW, Beijing seems to have less than a dozen maritime patrol aircraft (MPA)—the ASW workhorse of most advanced navies. No wonder the submarine market in East and South Asia has been so dynamic over the last decade, as smaller neighbors, such as Vietnam, and other regional competitors, such as Australia, reach for an answer to China’s naval buildup. Based on recent Chinese naval writings, Chinese defense analysts are quite concerned about the challenge foreign submarines may pose to Chinese maritime interests and ambitions. Indeed, available evidence suggests China is laying the foundation for a considerably more advanced ASW capability that could emerge one or two decades hence.

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Among many other items in this article, they talk about a PLAN "<i>qianshe fanqian daodan</i>" rocket launched ASW weapon for the Song Class SS vessels.

I am not aware of the specs for this weapon, but apparently there is something for the subs which would beg the question as to whether the PLAN have developed a surface vessel launched version.

The reference for the discussion regarding that weapon is this:

Intelligence Quarterlyt said:
Chen Guangwen, “Bu sheng zhuo ying: zhongguo haijun fanqian zhanli de fazhan” [Catching a Sound to Seize a Shadow: Development of China's ASW Combat Power] Jianzai wuqi [Shipborne Weapons], December 2010, p. 25

Which I have not been able to obtain and read in English yet. Anyone familiar with it? Franko-Russe, Tphuang, etc?
 

asif iqbal

Lieutenant General
nice find Jeff, just one question, where is that picture taken, a Z9C with a Tico in the background? what was going on there

I always said the best way to fight submarine is to deploy your own killer attack submarine, everything else is just a aid

amd i think some people need to give China just a little bit of time, let them grow for heavens sake

anyhow MPA is in the works we have already seen the pics

Z15 medium lift helo is in the works which will bring advantage over Z9C

towed array sonars are also now evident but i am not sure about bigger and more advanced hull based sonars?

current Type 056 dont have hangers but may do in the future, even if they do they will only manage a Z9C sized helo, how they are geared for ASW i am not quite sure, have we seen TAS on them? they wont hold much of a hull based sonar because of their size, plus they will be used for close shore patrol not as escorts

when ex-Varyag is deployed hopefully it will have a carrier based AWACS, along with ASW Z8 air wing, in addition to Type 052C, Type 054A and a Type 095 SSN, what more anti-submarine warfare do they want?

i think the situtaion is far from ideal but not that critical, with long range armed Maritime patrol aircraft under development the situation will soon change

theres only one thing i think is of concern, lack of helos for the Navy, we will soon have more new ships than helos in PLAN, that is something they really need to addresss

I think China should put on high priority the development of a NH-90 or Merlin sized helo designed specifically for the Navy, then deploying them in large numbers
 

MwRYum

Major
I think China should put on high priority the development of a NH-90 or Merlin sized helo designed specifically for the Navy, then deploying them in large numbers

If only they can domestically manufacture turbine engines of the same class and grade, with similar performance ratings, but they still unable to do so; in terms of helicopter models China has a class gap between the Z-9 and Z-8 (which those like the NH-90 or SH-60 would fit in): Z-9 is too small for an effective payload whereas Z-8 is too big for most PLAN surface combatants.
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
Is anyone able to find the reference section? Cannot seem to locate it for some reason...
 

wych

Just Hatched
Registered Member
Is anyone able to find the reference section? Cannot seem to locate it for some reason...

(Hi everyone.)

You can find the reference section at the end of the original article, which appeared in the Jamestown Foundation's China Brief July 29 2011 issue; (available & googlable online).
 

Geographer

Junior Member
Why has the PLAN neglected ASW? Submarines are nothing new to East Asia. I guess helicopters are in very short supply, but there's no excuse for having so few maritime patrol aircraft and submarine chasing patrol boats.
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
Why has the PLAN neglected ASW? Submarines are nothing new to East Asia. I guess helicopters are in very short supply, but there's no excuse for having so few maritime patrol aircraft and submarine chasing patrol boats.

Well, I think the article Jeff linked does a fairly good analysis of the historical and practical reasons for this, with the most important factors being:

- The vast gulf in capabilities between the PLA and potential adversaries until as late as a few years ago. It is only in the last 5 or so years that the PLAAF has grown strong enough to have a realistic chance of holding off enemy air power far enough out, and for long enough to allow things like AWACS and MPAs to operate with any degree of security. As the article pointed out, what is the point in investing vast sums and resources in a large MPA fleet if said fleet will get shot down as soon as they tried to do their job?

- The PLAN puts a great deal of emphasis on creative mine warfare, and they may well see that as sufficient to reducing enemy sub operations to a manageable level.

- The new evidence brought up by that article suggests that the PLAN may well have been following the odd adage that the best hunter of a sub is another sub.

I feel that the article does not examine this aspect in as much detail as maybe it should. This may well be because they were looking at it from a US stand point instead of truly putting themselves in China's shoes.

If a major conflict does break out, and the only likely example would be Taiwan, the PLAN would have a very specific mission in a relatively small area.

In addition, it needs to be stressed that for China, even today, it's best defense against attack from a superior force like the USN is the economic co-dependancy between America and China. If hostilities does break out, it will be in everyone's interest to try and keep it as localized, contained and short-lived as possible.

This means that initially at least, the Americans would not be looking at trying to cut off China's Sea Lines of Communication (SLC) by attacking merchant shipping, especially since the majority of that shipping will carrying manufactured goods destined for American and European shops, or the raw materials to make said goods.

The PLAN has no hope of keeping China's sea lines open if the USN really wants to cut them off, so they don't even try to develop that capacity and instead make it such that America will be hurting itself as much as China if it went down that road.

Thus, the PLAN's ASW burden is massively reduced to where it only needs to be able to keep a relatively small section of the Chinese coast, namely the Taiwan Straits and it's immediate surrounding waters, free from enemy subs.

In this context, the PLAN's preferred tactic of mine warfare and using it's large SSK fleet as mobile screens to lay and wait would have a far greater chance of success.

The PLAN's subs were never intended to out to sweep all enemy subs away like their USN counterparts. As far as they are concerned, USN subs can go anywhere they like and do whatever they liked so long as they do not enter the Taiwan straits to threaten the PLA landing forces.

Something else to consider is that until the last decade or so, the PLAN actually did not really have many surface combatants worth sinking. Especially in the context of them operating in a heavily defended small stretch of water.

When the PLAN only have Jianweis and the few Luhus, I think they would have happily traded one or more of those for a USN LA/Virgina or Seawolf. As such, all the PLAN would need to do is set up a perimeter patrolled by their SSKs, use lots of small landing craft so none would make for a good target and escort them with Jianweis and Luhus to provide point defense against shore based AShMs.

Even if an enemy SSN does manage to slip past the SSK sentries, as soon as it opens fire it will expose it's position and be effectively bottled in and have very little chance of getting out again alive. Would a USN sub skipper give the order to sink one or two ships, when he knows it won't matter one bit on the grand scheme of things, and that doing so would almost certainly mean he and his ship gets sunk in return? There would be no doubt if this was an invasion fleet heading for America, but would he do it for Taiwan? I have my doubts. But the point is, even if he does fire, the trade off still favours the PLAN.

Now, that might seem cruel and callouss, and you would be right. But that is the price of fighting a technologically superior foe. That is something America has not had to do since WWII, and I really don't think Americans today can easily get into that mindset and think that way and make those kind of calls.

It is only recently, now that tensions with Taiwan has receded and the PLA is confident that they could take the island no matter what, that the PLAN has started to set it's sights beyond Taiwan. That is the main driving force behind the recent massive build up of it's surface fleet, the acquisition of LPDs and carriers and possible LHDs, and it is only with this extended scope that the PLAN is looking at ASW anew.

However, it should still be stressed that it is important to look at this build up in terms of what the PLAN plans to do with it's new fleet and who it is aimed at.

The hawks, defense contracts and military in America automatically assumes that the build up is aimed at challenging America, or tries to make it seem that way as a means to drum up a threat to justify America's frankly ridiculously over-sized defense budget. But they would be wrong.

The PLAN will not be in a position to challenge the USN for supremacy of the oceans for decades to come if ever, because China does not see the justification for such massive spending on the military. Even when China's GDP is the same as America's China's defense spending will still be smaller because China spends about half as much in terms of GDP as America on defense, and I do not see that as changing much any time soon.

China's new fleet is aimed at protecting China's interest in South East Asia and Africa. If the PLAN ever uses it's fleet in anger, it will be to protect Chinese interests on Africa, or to slap down land grabs in the South China Sea like the PLAN has done before. Against those kinds of foes, the PLAN's current and projected ASW assets are just about passable. It is still an area that needs major investment, and the PLAN does recognize this, and seems to be doing the right things to address this deficiency. But in the context of the kinds of foes the PLAN might realistically face, it's ASW is not as quite as inadequate as it would seem at first glance.
 

SampanViking

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It looks a s though Plawolf has largely shot my fox on this one.

I still see China as a land power first and a maritime power only in the long term. Clearly the main maritime phase of China's military modernisation is only just starting to get going and the PLAN is nowhere near being realistically capable of going head to head against the USN far beyond territorial waters.

In that sense, spending money on something expensive like capable ASW systems would be premature and diverting resources away from where they can be better spent.
As others have noted, ASW is a capability to develop for the coming decades, once a navy is in place that warrants the protection.
 

asif iqbal

Lieutenant General
i think a point is also being missed here

no doubt all this is for war, but like in the Cold War, world Navys do tit for tat all the time, they always play cat and mouse with each other and through these games in peacetime you make or break respect for ones opponents

China will very soon find itself playing these games with its foes and friends, and when it does it has to be prepared to make a impact, otherwise its drawsbacks and weaknesses will be descovered and that is something China cant afford

the last thing you want is to be building up ur capability and then when it comes to test time you are let down, US and China will never go to war, but Cold War style engagments will be something of teh future and China needs to be prepared for it
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
plawolf said:
I feel that the article does not examine this aspect in as much detail as maybe it should.

Ageed. but not for the reasons you state. I think that they just did not have enough info on the real capabilities of the Yuan and new SSNs.

plawolf said:
If a major conflict does break out, and the only likely example would be Taiwan, the PLAN would have a very specific mission in a relatively small area.

In addition, it needs to be stressed that for China, even today, it's best defense against attack from a superior force like the USN is the economic co-dependancy between America and China. If hostilities does break out, it will be in everyone's interest to try and keep it as localized, contained and short-lived as possible.

Thus, the PLAN's ASW burden is massively reduced to where it only needs to be able to keep a relatively small section of the Chinese coast, namely the Taiwan Straits and it's immediate surrounding waters, free from enemy subs.
Ageed.

plawolf said:
Even if an enemy SSN does manage to slip past the SSK sentries, as soon as it opens fire it will expose it's position and be effectively bottled in and have very little chance of getting out again alive. Would a USN sub skipper give the order to sink one or two ships, when he knows it won't matter one bit on the grand scheme of things, and that doing so would almost certainly mean he and his ship gets sunk in return? There would be no doubt if this was an invasion fleet heading for America, but would he do it for Taiwan? I have my doubts. But the point is, even if he does fire, the trade off still favours the PLAN.
The America skipper will follow orders, and if those orders are to get pass the SS s and sink segments of the invasion fleet, he will pick the highest value targets and do so and then try to egress...thaat is, if he has to egress.

plawolf said:
Now, that might seem cruel and callouss, and you would be right. But that is the price of fighting a technologically superior foe. That is something America has not had to do since WWII, and I really don't think Americans today can easily get into that mindset and think that way and make those kind of calls.
Technically superior in the sense that they have high quality and technologically advanced equipment...not in the sense that they are nesessarily superior to the US. And I will say again, the US Naval officer corps and carreer NCOs are very disciplined and very dedicated. They will follow orders.

The real question is, whether the US subs can get out of there once they inflict the maximum damage they can.

In all likelihood, they wont have to. Their strategy will be to deal with the undersea threat first.

The likely strategy for the US will be to respond with massive force using 20 or more nuclear attack subs to clear the straits of PLAN subs. With those types of numbers, with the types of training they already perform, regularly, and with the equipment and weapons they have...this will be the real challenge for the PLAN...to avoid this. I do not think at this moment they will be able to. No doubt it will be a visious fight under the waves...but the US simply has too many advanced, very quiet nuclear attack subs and the Straits are too small to effectively hide from a pincer the likes of which that the US will likely set up, using blocking forces of even more subs to prevent any PLAN reinforcements from coming to the aid of those that get trapped in the Straits.

The PLAN will have to build more and better AIP SSs and more quiet SSNs to be able to defend against those numbers.

plawolf said:
The PLAN will not be in a position to challenge the USN for supremacy of the oceans for decades to come if ever, because China does not see the justification for such massive spending on the military. Even when China's GDP is the same as America's China's defense spending will still be smaller because China spends about half as much in terms of GDP as America on defense, and I do not see that as changing much any time soon.

China's new fleet is aimed at protecting China's interest in South East Asia and Africa. If the PLAN ever uses it's fleet in anger, it will be to protect Chinese interests on Africa, or to slap down land grabs in the South China Sea like the PLAN has done before. Against those kinds of foes, the PLAN's current and projected ASW assets are just about passable. But in the context of the kinds of foes the PLAN might realistically face, it's ASW is not as quite as inadequate as it would seem at first glance.
Agreed if it is not the US or pulls the US in. But with the numbers of SSNs and DDGs the US has (which will be near 60 or more of each), the PLAN still needs to progress in my opinion to be able to pull it off successfully aganist a determined US aministration. Now...outside of the military technology, a LOT will depend on who occupies the Whie House and the PRC knows this full well...just as Putin and other leaders do.
 
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