Battle of Shanghai, 1937

solarz said:

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the article did not support your opinion.

from the article.

Prior to the China Incident Japan had some success in achieving its economic aims in Manchuria……….In contrast output of synthetic oil and coal production were modest at best. Both were vital industries where Japan was heavily reliant on foreign sources of supply. The failure of Manchuria to replace these sources was thus a huge disappointment..........Despite these setbacks the occupation of Manchuria was initially seen by Japan as relatively inexpensive and successful………………..

If Japan was able to make some headway in Manchuria it could make little in China proper……….Large scale warfare of this kind made it impossible for Japan to exploit China's economic resources……….The Sino-Japanese War of 1937-1945 not only prevented Japan economically exploiting China but was also a major drain on Japan's economy……………….

lightspeed said:

the article did not support your opinion.

from the article.

Prior to the China Incident Japan had some success in achieving its economic aims in Manchuria……….In contrast output of synthetic oil and coal production were modest at best. Both were vital industries where Japan was heavily reliant on foreign sources of supply. The failure of Manchuria to replace these sources was thus a huge disappointment..........Despite these setbacks the occupation of Manchuria was initially seen by Japan as relatively inexpensive and successful………………..

If Japan was able to make some headway in Manchuria it could make little in China proper……….Large scale warfare of this kind made it impossible for Japan to exploit China's economic resources……….The Sino-Japanese War of 1937-1945 not only prevented Japan economically exploiting China but was also a major drain on Japan's economy……………….

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Dude, why don't you quote the whole passage instead of cherry-picking what you like?

If Japan was able to make some headway in Manchuria it could make little in China proper. Japan entered the China Incident in July 1937 with plans for a three month campaign involving three divisions costing a hundred million yen. By the spring of 1938 the scale of Japan's miscalculation meant that its entire army was readying for indefinite war, twenty new army divisions were being created and 2.5 billion yen had been appropriated. Large scale warfare of this kind made it impossible for Japan to exploit China's economic resources. Japan could gain any real estate it desired but little popular support. If the average Chinese had remained indifferent, Japan could have manipulated the situation in its favour economically. Instead of indifference most Chinese were however openly hostile to the Japanese as evidenced by widespread guerrilla activity against Japanese military and economic targets. This activity forced Japan to station a large number of troops in the rear of China to protect railroads, bridges and other important economic assets. The sheer size of China meant these troops could only ever be spread thinly and therefore they were deployed either in the cities or to put down the numerous flare ups in resistance. Japan could benefit economically from its position in China only through the use of its military, a military insufficient in size for the job.

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The article *clearly* states that had the Chinese been more "cooperative", the Japanese might very well have achieved their goal! That they failed does not change the fact that this was clearly their plan.

And who were those people engaged in active resistance against the Japanese in the occupied North? Yes, the Eighth Route Army. The same people you keep accusing of not fighting the Japanese.

In other words, had the CCP not taken up the duty that Jiang had abandonned, the Japanese would have benefited much more from their occupation of northern China.

solarz said:

Dude, why don't you quote the whole passage instead of cherry-picking what you like?

The article *clearly* states that had the Chinese been more "cooperative", the Japanese might very well have achieved their goal! That they failed does not change the fact that this was clearly their plan.

And who were those people engaged in active resistance against the Japanese in the occupied North? Yes, the Eighth Route Army. The same people you keep accusing of not fighting the Japanese.

In other words, had the CCP not taken up the duty that Jiang had abandonned, the Japanese would have benefited much more from their occupation of northern China.

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our discussion from post #33 was whether the natural resources of Manchuria and occupied China had greatly funded the Japanese’s invasions of China then ? you said yes and I said no, the article said no.

FYI, the Communists were not the only guerilla force in occupied China then, there were the KMT guerilla force and the local guerilla forces, not affiliated with the KMT nor the CCP.

lightspeed said:

our discussion from post #33 was whether the natural resources of Manchuria and occupied China had greatly funded the Japanese’s invasions of China then ? you said yes and I said no, the article said no.

FYI, the Communists were not the only guerilla force in occupied China then, there were the KMT guerilla force and the local guerilla forces, not affiliated with the KMT nor the CCP.

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Again, read what I wrote, not what you imagined. I said the resources in northern China fueled the Japanese war machine. This is an undeniable fact. What you are arguing is that they didn't succeed in extracting enough resources to conquer all of China. Two completely distinct notions.

FYI, there may have been non-CCP guerilla forces in Japanese occupied territory, but the biggest Chinese military presence in northern China at the time was undeniably the Eighth Route Army.

This thread is concerning the Battle for Shanghai. It would be meaningful if the conversation was focussed on the nature of the thread and not some frivolous arguments. The problem is that there is no framework in which this conversation should follow so that some form of sensible conversation can then transpire. If you are familiar with the Osprey military series, all of their campaign discussions follow a particular format, such as :

1)The background. In this case, was Shanghai strategically important for both China and Japan?
2)The commanders leading both opposing armies. Who were they and what significant strategic and tactical decisions were made by them - good or bad?
3)Opposing armies. What were the composition, training, and weapons they had? What made a difference in the campaign?
4)Battle plans. What were the battle plans on both sides as it progress? Was it well executed and what could have been different that could have changed the outcome?
5)Reinforcements and logistics. Which side did a better job and why?

There are so many relevant things that could be talked about concerning this particular aspect of history if you put your mind to it. For example, what about the Eight Route Army? What role did it play in this battle? Did it perform well?

solarz said:

Again, read what I wrote, not what you imagined. I said the resources in northern China fueled the Japanese war machine. This is an undeniable fact. What you are arguing is that they didn't succeed in extracting enough resources to conquer all of China. Two completely distinct notions.

FYI, there may have been non-CCP guerilla forces in Japanese occupied territory, but the biggest Chinese military presence in northern China at the time was undeniably the Eighth Route Army.

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I was arguing the extent and the significance, not the actuality of that all along. I even clearly asked for your stance in post #39. if you disagreed with that, you should have said so.

the Communists were not the largest military force in North China before 1941, but probably the largest force after 1941. btw, that article’s account of the war was from the 1930s to 1940.

I believe imperial Japan and Nazis Germany both made two mistakes and ones which cost them the war

Hitler wanted more living space for the German people and needed resources and went into the Soviet Union a territory so vast eventually it swallowed his army's

Imperial Japan went into China for resources and although not as large as the Soviet Union the China tied down huge number of Japanese troops

For the battle of Okinawa and Iwo Jima the Japan called in its crack troops from mainland China, imagine what would have happened if Japan pitted all it's forces against America in the Pacific including the millions of troops stationed inside China the war would have been even more bloody

Soviet Union broke Hilters army's in the East and China did the same to Japan in WWII

lightspeed said:

I was arguing the extent and the significance, not the actuality of that all along. I even clearly asked for your stance in post #39. if you disagreed with that, you should have said so.

the Communists were not the largest military force in North China before 1941, but probably the largest force after 1941. btw, that article’s account of the war was from the 1930s to 1940.

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The Hundred Regiment Offensive was in 1940.

solarz said:

The Hundred Regiment Offensive was in 1940.

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that battle caused considerable damages to the Japanese-controlled railway lines at the onset. that’s why the Japanese forces were deployed to join the Puppet forces to fight the 8RA. the 8RA fought a successful and useful battle, and they should have fought more of that type of battle for the rest of the war.

other than that battle, from what I read from the CCP generals’ memoirs, they almost only fought against the Puppet forces with the odd Japanese auxiliary forces. that's the main reason why I doubt the usefulness and significance of the CCP’s military contributions toward China’s war efforts.

lightspeed said:

that battle caused considerable damages to the Japanese-controlled railway lines at the onset. that’s why the Japanese forces were deployed to join the Puppet forces to fight the 8RA. the 8RA fought a successful and useful battle, and they should have fought more of that type of battle for the rest of the war.

other than that battle, from what I read from the CCP generals’ memoirs, they almost only fought against the Puppet forces with the odd Japanese auxiliary forces. that's the main reason why I doubt the usefulness and significance of the CCP’s military contributions toward China’s war efforts.

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Irrelevant. You said that the 8RA were not the largest military force in China before 1941. Did you mean to include the Japanese in that statement? Otherwise, what other force could have conducted an operation like the 100RO?

400k soldiers also don't magically appear in one day. This is a strong counter to your argument that the 8RA wasn't the largest Chinese force in northern China before 1941.