broadsword
Brigadier
LC Sign's Tony's jaw dropped to the floor!
Artificial Intelligence thread
- Thread starter 9dashline
- Start date
That's the f-king craziest story I have heard in some time in a world of crazy stories.
As opposed to OPEN AI/GOOGLE AI/ANTHROPIC aid U.S. and it's vassal in the middle-east to genociding men, women, and children in Palestine!!
R2 about to drop soon? lmao
Just an aside, but Deepseek's reasoning just never ceases to amaze me. Just earlier today I watched a Thorium MSR video and recalled an old question I had, which is why it can run in the desert while most other reactors can't. I last looked it up a few years ago, and it was very hard to find the answer via traditional search. I ended up concluding that it was due to the high operating temperature, but couldn't get any specifics. I tried AI today to get the answer, which required some prompting. This was Deepseek's reasoning, just so cool!
For comparison, I also asked ChatGPT for the answer. While it also answered it correctly, it 1) didn't provide the detailed reasoning for the answer like DS, and 2) possibly didn't recognize the higher technical competency of the questioner and didn't provide additional information that could be (and indeed was) very useful to me, like the a water consumption comparison between various cooling strategies for the condensing unit (which DS corrected me on in terminology, so subtly as it intended in its reasoning section that I didn't even notice lol!).
DS answer:
You've pinpointed a crucial distinction! While molten salt reactors (MSRs) eliminate water for reactor cooling, most designs do use water indirectly for power generation via steam turbines (the Rankine cycle). However, MSRs have unique advantages that enable water-minimized or even water-free operation in deserts, unlike conventional reactors. Here's the breakdown:
1. Decoupling Reactor Cooling from Power Generation
- Primary Loop (Salt): Fuel is dissolved in molten fluoride salt (e.g., FLiBe), which circulates through the core, absorbing heat. This loop operates at atmospheric pressure and uses the salt as both fuel carrier and coolant. No water is involved here.
- Secondary Loop (Power Conversion): Heat from the primary salt is transferred to a non-radioactive working fluid (e.g., another molten salt, supercritical CO₂, or nitrogen/helium gas) via an intermediate heat exchanger. This is where water traditionally enters the picture for steam generation.
2. The Water Dependency in Power Conversion
Conventional nuclear/coal/gas plants and some MSR designs use a steam Rankine cycle for power generation:
- Steam is produced (using heat from the secondary loop).
- Steam drives a turbine.
- Steam must be condensed back into water after leaving the turbine.
- Condensation requires a heatsink – usually large volumes of water (e.g., from rivers, oceans, or cooling towers that evaporate water).
MSRs operate at much higher temperatures (650–750°C vs. 300–350°C in conventional reactors). This enables efficient alternative power cycles with dramatically lower or zero water needs:
3. How MSRs Enable Water Reduction/Elimination in Deserts
- Dry Cooling (Air-Cooled Condensers):
Instead of water-cooled condensers, large air-cooled heat exchangers (like car radiators) condense steam using desert air. While less efficient than water cooling (reducing output by 5–10%), it's viable due to MSRs' high baseline efficiency (45–50% vs. 33% for conventional reactors).
Example: China's planned Gobi Desert TMSR uses air-cooled condensers.- Gas Brayton Cycles (Water-Free):
MSRs can replace steam turbines with closed-loop gas turbines using:
- Supercritical CO₂ (sCO₂)
- Nitrogen (N₂)
- Helium (He)
These gases are condensed via air-cooled heat exchangers, requiring no water. sCO₂ cycles are especially efficient at high temperatures.
Example: U.S. Department of Energy designs for advanced reactors prioritize sCO₂ for arid regions.- Hybrid Systems:
Waste heat (~550°C) can drive industrial processes (e.g., hydrogen production, desalination), improving overall efficiency and offsetting water use.️ 4. Why High Temperature Matters
Conventional reactors cannot use dry cooling/gas cycles effectively because:
MSRs' 700°C+ output enables:
- Their lower temperatures (300°C) make air cooling thermodynamically inefficient (output drops >25%).
- Gas cycles require >500°C for viability – unattainable in water-cooled reactors.
- Higher thermal efficiency (more electricity per unit of heat).
- Practical use of air/gas cycles with minimal efficiency penalty.
5. Water Use Comparison
Plant Type Cooling Water Needs (litres/MWh) Desert Viability Conventional Nuclear 1,500–2,500 Requires massive water bodies
Coal/Gas 1,000–2,000 MSR (Steam Cycle + Wet Cooling) 800–1,200 Possible but suboptimal
MSR (Steam + Dry Cooling) 20–50 Feasible (water for makeup only)
MSR (sCO₂/N₂ Brayton Cycle) 0 Key Takeaway
Molten salt reactors eliminate water for reactor safety (no meltdown risk, atmospheric pressure operation) and enable water-free power cycles via high-temperature operation. While steam cycles using dry cooling reduce water needs by ~95%, closed gas cycles (sCO₂/N₂) can achieve true zero-water operation in deserts. This makes MSRs uniquely suited for arid regions compared to any existing large-scale power technology.
