APC or IFV

Miragedriver

Brigadier
Great information TerraN! I agree with all your comments, so we basically boiled it down to that it is not possible to have one APC/AFV for your armed forces, since there are multiples flavors of combat situation. One as described in my above post (fighting insurgents and protecting convoys) that describes operation taking place on paved/semi-paved surfaces. This force would then consists of wheeled vehicles.

The other combat environment would be mostly off-road and require tracks for mobility not possible with wheeled vehicle.

This works well for richer nations that can afford a well-protected APC/AFV in the 30ton range. The problem for the rest of us is the cost a protectable vehicle such as the Boxer, etc. would limit the number available for acquisition.



I will now get back to bottling my Malbec
 

Miragedriver

Brigadier
an Active defence system is good option but my aim is not a force dedicated just to asymmetric fights. I feel you need to have defensive protection against 30mm cannon or better.......

.......14.5mm MG's are the base threat for Asymmetric war but over specialize and you breed in weakness.

Speaking of larger rounds utilized against APC/AFV. I have wondered why some nations military has not considered a dedicated fire support vehicle (based on the same chassis as the APC, wheeled or not) that would utilized a high rate of fire, large caliber shell to saturate anther vehicle or enemy positions with a high rate of fire. There vehicles could also disable tanks.

I have considered a high rate of fire 57mm or 75mm gun mounted on a vehicle.

I will now get back to bottling my Malbec
 

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
There have been some IFV's with bigger guns. the Russian BMP1 had a 73mm low velocity smooth bore. and there was the Brandt 60 mm Long Range gun-mortar that was used on a number of French and european vehicles. generally though we seem to have settled on a calibre range of between 25-40mm.
There are some Anti aircraft types. like the North Korean M1985 which mounts dual 57mm cannons on a YW 531 APC hull
some light tanks are based on IFV hulls the CV90-120T and the polish conceptual PL-01 are both built around CV90 IFV hulls.
 

Equation

Lieutenant General
Geeze...what kind of large buck that requires such a enormous "rifle" (more like portable mortar to me) to hunt?:p;)

Elmer Fudd: "I'm hunting wabbit!"

Anzio-Ironworks-Monstrous-20mm.jpg
 

Miragedriver

Brigadier
There have been some IFV's with bigger guns. the Russian BMP1 had a 73mm low velocity smooth bore. and there was the Brandt 60 mm Long Range gun-mortar that was used on a number of French and european vehicles. generally though we seem to have settled on a calibre range of between 25-40mm.
There are some Anti aircraft types. like the North Korean M1985 which mounts dual 57mm cannons on a YW 531 APC hull
some light tanks are based on IFV hulls the CV90-120T and the polish conceptual PL-01 are both built around CV90 IFV hulls.

I’m thinking a 57mm with a rate of fire of between 120 to 200 RPM or a 75mm with a rate of fire of 60 RPM. Something that will really keep their heads down. :D


I will now get back to bottling my Malbec
 

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
I’m thinking a 57mm with a rate of fire of between 120 to 200 RPM or a 75mm with a rate of fire of 60 RPM. Something that will really keep their heads down. :D


I will now get back to bottling my Malbec

well then the North Korean M1985 is your answer. Self propelled anti air guns aren't just for close in anti air they are also nasty infantry and IFV meat grinders.
 
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Miragedriver

Brigadier
well then the North Korean M1985 is your answer. Self propelled anti air guns aren't just for close in anti air they are also nasty infantry and IFV meat grinders.

Interesting, but I was envisioning something like the Sheridan but with a high velocity and high rate of fire 75mm or 60mm.

I will now get back to bottling my Malbec
 

Miragedriver

Brigadier
TerraN, The reason I’m on this topic is because I saw a video on YouTube a month or so ago of a ZSU-57-2 doing direct fire on a bunker. This image has been festering in my mind ever since. Thinking back I remember that in the 1980s, there were a couple efforts to develop a relatively light high-velocity gun system that could be carried on APC or IFV chassis to allow them to provide near-tank-level fire support without a 50+ ton vehicle weight. Two examples were the Ares 75mm auto cannon and the IMI 60mm high velocity auto gun. The Ares 75mm was envisioned as being mounted on a dedicated vehicle, while the IMI 60mm was offered in a turret that was mounted on an M113 APC.

Nowadays, with the Super 40mm and 50mm Supershot Bushmaster variants, this idea seems to have finally come to fruition. But these weapons are designed for IFVs. I was thinking of something more like the Ares 75mm, for a dedicated fire support vehicle.

My idea was to increase the capability of the weapon by adding an indirect fire capability. Gas- and recoil-operated weapons need to be carefully calibrated to the ammunition they fire in order to function correctly. With the Bushmaster chain gun design, reloading does not harness the recoil forces of the ammunition. This means that you can use virtually any ammo that is powerful enough to eject the projectile from the barrel. This flexibility could be quite useful.

So the concept is a 75mm smoothbore high velocity chain gun with straight-cased rounds. Such a weapon would provide a good anti-armor capability. It should be able to even deal with older MBTs, like the T-55 series. It could certainly deal with any lighter armored vehicles easily, without even requiring an APFSDS round. A HEAT round would be sufficient (barring reactive armor). Since many IFVs are now up armored to the point that they can survive direct hits from 30mm AP cannon shells, this is not a useless capability. And so far as fire support against troops, buildings and the like, a several round burst from such a weapon would be quite unpleasant to the recipients.

A 75mm high-velocity auto cannon also has obvious implications as an antiaircraft system. SAM have limitations in certain scenarios, like trying to hit attack helicopters hovering just behind a tree line. With helicopters carried AT missiles having ranges up to 10 km these days, the light auto-cannons on IFVs are just not effective against such threats, and neither are lighter SAMs like the Stingers used in our lighter AD systems like the HMMV Avenger and Bradley. But this 75mm high-velocity weapon system, with pre-fragmentation shells with programmable fuses, should do the job nicely. And those same shells, detonated right above a trench line, would lay waste to troops contained therein. A cloud of several thousand hypervelocity tungsten steel pellets is messily deadly. A pattern of these laid across the top of a long fortification would instantly clean the ramparts of anyone not under serious protection.

Additionally I see no reason why a 75mm smoothbore gun, with an elevating mechanism capable of near-vertical elevation, would not make a suitable long-barreled 75mm mortar. With the right feed mechanism, perhaps even a 75mm auto-mortar. The Russians had the 82mm 2B9 Vasilek auto mortar. By all accounts, it was a devastating weapon. The Vasilek saw service in Afghanistan, where its ability to rapidly fire an entire four-round clip of 82mm mortar bombs into a target zone made it a feared fire support weapon. This ability to quickly saturate a target zone is something I think mechanized infantry forces could put this to good use. With such a long barrel, I would expect you could maximize the range.



I will now get back to bottling my Malbec
 

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
Well I don't think that anyone has really done that. I guess it could be done but its a question of need and wants. If you do do a fire support vehicle like that one thing is your likely to ditch the infantry as to keep that rate of fire would need a chassis to take the recoil and a large magazine.
 
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