Any news on Chinese AWACS fleet?

Eurofighter

New Member
King_Comm said:
Phased array radar (some report even suggest AESA) are more advanced than the conventional mechanically scan radars, it can achieve a larger scanning area and higher scanning rate, and by letting three radars facing three different directions, the refresh rate of information is also dramatically increased...

thank you for the info. So you are implying that the radars on the new PLAAF AWACS are very sophisticated? Then what are the technical specifications of these AWACS (for me a rough estimation will do)? like their maximum search and track range, the number of targets that can be tracked simultaneously, and how much missiles or combat aircrafts can be guided by the AWACS at the same time? and equally important, how many of these AWACS will the PLAAF field in the future? (besides those derivatives of Y-8)
Lots of questions on my part, sorry for that...
 
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King_Comm

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thank you for the info. So you are implying that the radars on the new PLAAF AWACS are very sophisticated? Then what are the technical specifications of these AWACS (for me a rough estimation will do)? like their maximum search and track range, the number of targets that can be tracked simultaneously, and how much missiles or combat aircrafts can be guided by the AWACS at the same time? and equally important, how many of these AWACS will the PLAAF field in the future? (besides those derivatives of Y-8)

==I would assume that that sort of radar would be able to detect fight sized target at a range of at least 350km, otherwise the Chinese wouldn't be bothered to develop it at all, as to how many target can it track or its command and control capabilities, it really depends on the on board computers and the softwares, which I have absolutely no information on.

==I would assume that the PLAAF would require at least 24 AWACS to ensure three shifts of 6 planes each giving 24 hour coverage in East China sea, Taiwan, and northern South China sea, allowing repair and maintainence. Due to the size of the radar, it has to be carried by Il-76, since the radar seem to be indigenous, the number of Il-76's China can obtain is the limit on how many of these AWACS can China field.

And it appears that Y-8 can only carry the "balance beam", which other countries uses mainly as AEW and survalliance planes, of course, the possiblity of the balance beam design being a real AWACS should not be excluded as a maritime AEW and survalliance version of Y-8 already exits.
 

MIGleader

Banned Idiot
Are you sure 24 kj-2000's are needed? The russians only have some 25 a-501's. Keeping a fleet of kj-2000s airborne will consume alot of gas, and would be a real waste of resecources in peacetime, especially since ground radar can cover all of eastern china already. It would be wiser to use these Awacs only when a U.s CVBG starts conducting an excerices nearby, or when the taiwanese conduct airborne excercises(their doing one now).

as for procurment, China has declined to ask russia for liscence production of the il-76. As the y-9 and an-70 aircraft begin to enter service a few years down the road, China may consider turning more of its il76s into AWACs. But for now, the plane is still the backbone of PLA airborne lift, so only a limited number will be converted. china may consider buying mroe a-501 airframes from russia.

Good news: one or all of the 3 kj-2000s currently in flight testing at Yanliang-based CFTE and an airbase near Nanjing might enter serice this year.
 

tphuang

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MIGleader said:
Are you sure 24 kj-2000's are needed? The russians only have some 25 a-501's. Keeping a fleet of kj-2000s airborne will consume alot of gas, and would be a real waste of resecources in peacetime, especially since ground radar can cover all of eastern china already. It would be wiser to use these Awacs only when a U.s CVBG starts conducting an excerices nearby, or when the taiwanese conduct airborne excercises(their doing one now).

as for procurment, China has declined to ask russia for liscence production of the il-76. As the y-9 and an-70 aircraft begin to enter service a few years down the road, China may consider turning more of its il76s into AWACs. But for now, the plane is still the backbone of PLA airborne lift, so only a limited number will be converted. china may consider buying mroe a-501 airframes from russia.

Good news: one or all of the 3 kj-2000s currently in flight testing at Yanliang-based CFTE and an airbase near Nanjing might enter serice this year.
They created a new regiment just for KJ-2000, that should show you how many KJ-2000 they are planning to get.

Also, currently there are two dadui (ie: 4 - 6) KJ-2000 in service. I would say 4, since most people were speculating that there would be 4 KJ-2000 by the end of 2006. You have to remember that just because we see 3 identified KJ-2000, that doesn't mean there isn't more than that.

Also, as mentionned on the top, there are more than just the balance beam version of Y-8. There is also a mushroom version of that which is for export. There is also a Y-7 AEW with a dome radar for the carrier.

Also, I think Y-9 will be used to converted to surveillence platforms, whereas Y-8F600 will be used for transport, since you can probably get away with calling a transport a "civilian aircraft". If you put a balance beam radar on it, it definitely would not be one.

What are the capabilities? KJ-2000 should be comparable to recent version of Phalcon. You can check the stats on A-50, it has to be superior to that.
 

Totoro

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Well, detection range for A50 varies greatly, depending on who you ask. But it seems to be somewhere between 220 (lowest figure i found) and 250 nm (highest figure, is around 460 km) for a fighter sized target. Then again, fighter sized target is quite a broad term.

Y8 definitely has both interior space and payload needed for true awacs capabilites. saab2000 erieye is smaller plane yet is true awacs. I would say chances are y8 is or will be a true awacs in the coming years.

As for numbers, of course one would fly just a small fraction of an awacs fleet during peacetime, to keep the operators well trained. But a country like china must have a vast fleet. US, for example, has over 30 E3s and over 80 E2s. Russians do have some 25 mainstays and i say that number is too low for such a country. Even for china, i see that number as absolute minumum, but it would take 5-10 years to get there.
 

KYli

Brigadier
KJ2000 would probably have a detection range around 350km, I think china would not deploy in great numbers if these planes are inferior.

The reason that US have so many AWACS fleet are simply because they have huge obligation. The Awacs fleet are not only cover US territories. Since China only need for now is to cover their own, I don't see the need for a large fleet. Somewhere between 25-30 would be more than enough for China.
 

tphuang

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this is from irkut's official website on A-50
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The A-50 Radar Early-Warning and Guiding Aircraft is designed for detection, tracking, and identification of friend-or-foe of aerial, big-size ground and sea-surface targets, as well as for transmitting acquired data on targets to command posts of various military services. The aircraft is also employed for directing friendly aircraft to the aerial, ground, and sea-surface targets.

Basic Performance
Max takeoff weight, kg 190,000
Patrolling time span at 1,000-km distance, h *:
- without aerial refueling 4
- with one aerial refueling 7
Detection range of aerial targets, km:
- bomber 650
- low-flying fighter up to radio-horizon
- cruise missile (RCS = 1 m2) 215
- sea-surface ships (RCS = 250 m2) up to radio-horizon
Detection range of ground targets, km *:
- single mid-range missile launcher 300
- group target of «tank column» type 250
Number of tracked aerial targets up to 300
Frequency bands:
- ELINT, GHz 0.5 ... 18
- SIGINT, MHz 50 ... 500
Crew, pers.
- flight crew 5
- payload operators 11
* - characteristics may be changed on Customer's request.

Also found at
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So yes, 220 sounds like a good number for low RCS fighters (~1 m^2). For su-27s, I would imagine the number to be at least 1.5 time of that.

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CHINA SLIPS PAST U.S. AWACS BAN -- Russian officials say they are going to lend China two Airborne Warning And Control System (AWACS) radar surveillance aircraft for three years, and then sell them advanced, $200-million versions of the AWACS airplane in a deal similar to that offered previously by Israel -- which the U.S. opposed and believes it has killed. Delivery of up to six advanced A-50E AWACS airplanes to China is to be completed by 2005, according to both U.S. and Russian officials.
Even a first-generation Russian A-50 AWACS with a limited radar range up to 150 miles would be a key element in increasing the coordination and striking power of China's air forces. China currently has very little capability for directing groups of aircraft in a combat environment. This shortcoming has been one reason that neither Taiwan or the U.S. have been overly concerned about Chinese invasion threats, since air superiority would be necessary for any successful thrust across the Taiwan Strait.
The standard Russian-built A-50 is a "far-less capable AWACS than the Chinese would have had" if purchase of an Israeli-developed Phalcon system had been completed. The current Russian AWACS is "early 1980s technology at best," said a U.S. radar company official. "It's large and bulky," has established a reputation for low reliability and involves old transmitter/receiver technology. However, the Russians are offering the A-50E, a derivative of the standard A-50 mainstay that carries a radar developed by the Moscow-based "NII Priborostroenie" scientific and research institute. The performance attributed to the system by Russian sources includes the ability to detect cruise missiles against ground or sea clutter at a range of up to 250 mi. The radar is expected to take three years for production, tests and integration into the aircraft.
U.S. Air Force analysts are said to be skeptical of the Russian performance claims. "The A-50E [will be] less capable than the Israeli-modified A-50I," said a U.S. official. "The A-50E will have a search range [for aircraft] of approximately 125 naut. mi. and the capability to track up to 50 targets. The A-50I would have had a maximum effective search range of approximately 205-215 naut. mi. and the capability to track up to 100 targets simultaneously with the more advanced EL/M-2075 [L-band] radar."
Israeli aerospace industry officials, frustrated by last-minute U.S. opposition to their China sale, have vowed to ask for a reassessment of the program once the new U.S. administration is in office. (AW&ST July 17, pp. 38, 45 /// Wash Post Nov 29. P.9, David Fulghum) (Jonkers)

a lot of this stuff kind of confuses me. The official site list the ability to track up to 300 aerial targets, but some other site only lists 50 targets. I wonder how that differs so much?

Even the skymaster radar on Y-8J claims the capability to track 100 aerial targets and 32 ground/sea targets.

As for eventual AWACS count, I would guess:
25 KJ-2000 for PLAAF
30 Y-8 balance beam for PLAAF
12 Y-8 balance beam for PLANAF
4 Y-7 mushroom type for carriers
4-6 Y-8J

For the other Y-8 surveillence: (ECM, ELINT, command post, battlefield surveillence, MPA and possibly ASW)
a total of up to 40?
Basically, China needs a lot of F600 and Y-9s.
 

KYli

Brigadier
tphuang said:
As for eventual AWACS count, I would guess:
25 KJ-2000 for PLAAF

30 Y-8 balance beam for PLAAF
12 Y-8 balance beam for PLANAF
4 Y-7 mushroom type for carriers
4-6 Y-8J

For the other Y-8 surveillence: (ECM, ELINT, command post, battlefield surveillence, MPA and possibly ASW)
a total of up to 40?
Basically, China needs a lot of F600 and Y-9s.
I thought there are 6-8 Y-8J that were purchased from Britain, do you have an exact numbers.
 

MIGleader

Banned Idiot
The y-8j were not purchased from Britian, their skymaster radars were.So far, weve only seen two of the y-8j though
 

KYli

Brigadier
MIGleader said:
The y-8j were not purchased from Britian, their skymaster radars were.So far, weve only seen two of the y-8j though
Yeah, I am asking the skymaster radars, so why there are only two if China purchased 6-8. Did the news report got it wrong?
 
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