Alexander VS Qin dynasty

vesicles · Jul 22, 2009

zraver said:
correct,

"I think there was show on History channel talking about ancient weapons. On the show, an ancient weapons expert went to Mongolia and tried to pull a bow owned by a Mongolian guy who's about 60-70 years old and could not do it. The Mongolian guy, however, easily pulled the bow completely open. And later, the weapons expert was shocked to find out that the trick was to use the thumb, not the index finger, to pull." by vesicles.

Hmmm... Why was I quoted here?

I was simply describing a TV show demonstrating the advantages of the Mongolian bow-pulling techniques. All the show and my post are saying is that Mongolian pull was more powerful. That does not mean that the 3-finger pull cannot open a 160-Ib bow. For all that matters, it's possible that the 3-finger-pull opens 200-Ib bow, while the Mongolian-pull can possibly open a 250-Ib bow (hypothetically). Again, I don't think I ever made a claim that the 3-finger-pull cannot open a 160-Ib bow.

I'll try to find a clip of the show.

linxj1987 · Jul 27, 2009

Qin used bronze weapons. But I rememberd that smithing skills is so excellent that long sword could be produced and could keep enough hardness in Qin.
There is a story that, an killer called Jing Ke wanted to kill the emperor of Qin. He showed the map to the emperor and finally a dagger appeared. Killer chased the emperor around column and the emperor cannot beat back because of his sword is too long to drew. And the ministers cant help the emperor because they cant take weapons when they go into the palace...

Raptoreyes · Aug 8, 2009

crobato said:
Alexander if he has to go through the deserts in the northwest, will have to deal with proto-Hun tribes which will eat them alive.

Proto Hun tribes? This may have happened before such tribes equipped their horse raiders with stirrups. Still the "proto huns" would probably regard Alexandrian formations as a fun thing to try to "violently disrupt". (when your eking out a living herding animals, on terrain almost any other "horse culture" would deem "hopelessly cold and barren", any sort of fight large or small would be deemed "entertainment sent from a friendly deity").

Before Attila and the first Khan, central Asian horse tribes were the motorcycle gangs of the pre-industrial times. One hell of a headache to any group of professional solders past or present. Pardon me if "proto hun tribes" vs Alexanders army reminds me of the FBI vs The Hells Angles. Worth a laugh for the price of imagining the parallels. The tools and clothing changes but daredevil brigands with loot lust and nothing to loose, -- hectoring annoyed professionals, longing to go home to enjoy wife and pension, is a situation repeated so often, its nearly a feature of human male DNA.

FriedRiceNSpice · Aug 8, 2009

Before Attila and the first Khan, central Asian horse tribes were the motorcycle gangs of the pre-industrial times. One hell of a headache to any group of professional solders past or present. Pardon me if "proto hun tribes" vs Alexanders army reminds me of the FBI vs The Hells Angles. Worth a laugh for the price of imagining the parallels. The tools and clothing changes but daredevil brigands with loot lust and nothing to loose, -- hectoring annoyed professionals, longing to go home to enjoy wife and pension, is a situation repeated so often, its nearly a feature of human male DNA.

For some reason I just can't picture the Hell's Angels annihilating a USMC Expeditionary Force or a PLA Rapid Reaction Brigade. Or even a battalion of troops belonging to a Somalian warlord for that matter.

vesicles · Aug 9, 2009

FriedRiceNSpice said:
For some reason I just can't picture the Hell's Angels annihilating a USMC Expeditionary Force or a PLA Rapid Reaction Brigade. Or even a battalion of troops belonging to a Somalian warlord for that matter.

Yes, I agree. Huns and Mongolians were highly trained and highly organized and utilized the most advanced weapons of the day and advanced battle tactics. Also, they did not simply roam aimlessly around. Their leaders had superb strategic vision, which allowed them to conquer most of the known world (in the case of the Mongolians)?

To say that Huns or Mongolians are nothing but a bunch of disorganized petty criminals is a huge understatement and perhaps even a insult to the political and military skills of these ancient people.

crobato · Aug 9, 2009

Raptoreyes said:
Proto Hun tribes? This may have happened before such tribes equipped their horse raiders with stirrups. Still the "proto huns" would probably regard Alexandrian formations as a fun thing to try to "violently disrupt". (when your eking out a living herding animals, on terrain almost any other "horse culture" would deem "hopelessly cold and barren", any sort of fight large or small would be deemed "entertainment sent from a friendly deity").

Before Attila and the first Khan, central Asian horse tribes were the motorcycle gangs of the pre-industrial times. One hell of a headache to any group of professional solders past or present. Pardon me if "proto hun tribes" vs Alexanders army reminds me of the FBI vs The Hells Angles. Worth a laugh for the price of imagining the parallels. The tools and clothing changes but daredevil brigands with loot lust and nothing to loose, -- hectoring annoyed professionals, longing to go home to enjoy wife and pension, is a situation repeated so often, its nearly a feature of human male DNA.

If you ever study or research about the Hell's Angels, you're going to be surprised how well they're organized. In fact, the everyday preconception about gangs and organized crime tends to belie the incredible flexibility and sophistication of their organizations.

Raptoreyes · Aug 20, 2009

crobato said:
If you ever study or research about the Hell's Angels, you're going to be surprised how well they're organized. In fact, the everyday preconception about gangs and organized crime tends to belie the incredible flexibility and sophistication of their organizations.

Never said the Hells Angles or the Proto Huns were unsophisticated organizationally. However Genghis Khan (and his successors) to the horse people of central Asia to a whole new level. I was just laughing over how the same themes come up again and again in history, redressed to look very different each time.

crobato · Aug 20, 2009

Oh and you somehow think that Proto-Huns were disorganized? They were quite organized in fact to be a such a major threat that the Qin launched major military campaigns against them. Nomadic, horse rider societies are in fact, quite organizationally, sophisticated & flexible to sustain the logistics of their survival.

I just laugh again and again, how stupid some people think 'ancient' Asians are.

vesicles · Aug 26, 2009

Just saw it on the discovery channel's Mythbusters. Shooting arrows at 40 miles an hour increases the penetrating depth by ~30%. That means those Mongolians on horseback can shoot the same arrows and use the same bow and still get more penetration than archers on foot and shooting while standing still. Those interested: watch it on the Discovery channel again at 10pm CST tonight (08/26).

Infra_Man99 · Aug 27, 2009

vesicles said:
Just saw it on the discovery channel's Mythbusters. Shooting arrows at 40 miles an hour increases the penetrating depth by ~30%. That means those Mongolians on horseback can shoot the same arrows and use the same bow and still get more penetration than archers on foot and shooting while standing still. Those interested: watch it on the Discovery channel again at 10pm CST tonight (08/26).

I didn't see this show, but I am going to add to this idea about mounted archers.

Mounted archers will probably get better range than archers on foot, because they have more kinetic energy and height from their horses. Mounted archers have vastly superior cargo capacity, forward speed, and endurance than soldiers on foot.

However, charging-forward mounted soldiers will suffer more damage because they are charging towards an enemy's projectile or melee weapon. Mounted soldiers have to deal with getting their horses shot up, and getting knocked off their horses. Mounted soldiers still have difficulties breaking through encircled wagons. Shooting accurately on a moving horse is more difficult than standing still on foot. Mounted archers can't change directions as well as soldiers on foot. Horses need water and food like any other animal.

Mongols didn't always shoot while charging towards their enemy. Many times, they let their arrows fly during a long strategic retreat.

Alexander VS Qin dynasty

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