Aircraft Carriers III

asif iqbal

Lieutenant General
Even though it should be used for secondary missions not primary missions

Container or no container it can’t transport engine

Both have advantages and disadvantages

Both have reason to stay

Let’s not talk about age E2 flew first time in 1960

But like most things behind the scene politics is at play and it would not be the first time
 

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
Even though it should be used for secondary missions not primary missions
That's your opinion
Container or no container it can’t transport engine
It can transport the Engine. They proved that. Infact With the container the F135 Engine power module can't fit in the C2 Greyhound either. that meant having to get them around by ship and use a Heavy lift chopper and sling load but they figured out another option.
First they broke up the engine
The F35's engine is made up of modules intentionally, because Only the US CVN have the C2 series. In fact CODS is unique to the USN CVN. Not the French or Russians or Chinese or British or Italians, or Spanish or Indians...ecta ecta. They all use Helicopters. With F35 being a Export offering to Us allies including for naval use they broke the Engine into 4-6 parts. The Fan module, The power Module The Augmentor module and the Nozzle module With F35B also having the lift fan and gearbox. and with the container having issues shipping F 35 engines they then broke the modules up for shipping.
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This is the beast. The Power Module
F135powerModuleWASPtrailerMay2015sldinfoORIGINAL.jpg
This is it the F135 Power module the hardest part to fit and transport.
CMV-22_PowerModuleSkid_quadphotos.jpg

and look at that it's in a V22

261EB04655AE4A611D1360

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Both have advantages and disadvantages

Both have reason to stay
The fact is C2 cannot stay, They are wearing out. They needed replacement.
Let’s not talk about age E2 flew first time in 1960
NO LETS, Because E2D is brand new Airframes. Air frames. 35 year old Aircraft have issues that 4 year old ones don't especially when we are dealing with carrier operations.
But like most things behind the scene politics is at play and it would not be the first time
It was not a political decision it was a life cycle one. The only way to keep C2 was to build new C2, That might have happened, But the navy made another choice.
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
Well, the decision has been made...and in the end it will be a good one.

IMHO, the more variants of the V-322 made available to the US Navy, the better.

With her in the fleet as the COD, her chances to get an ASW and an AEW version built rise.

...and THAT is what I am hoping for.

ASW first because the fleet NEEDS a longer legged ASW aircraft for CSG ASW activities to get back where we were with the S-3s.

And...the LHDs and LHAs, expecially since they are going to be considered more and more for the Escort Carrier role with the F-35s, NEED a bette AEW aircraft that can take off of their decks without a cat...and an AEW V-22 is made to order for that role.

In addition, once the AEW aircraft were made available, particulalry a presurrized one with an altitude of 25k-30k feet...every one of our allies would want 2-3 birds for their CVHs, DDHs,LPHs, etc. whatever they call their own VTOL carriers.. And that woudl include potentially:

Japan
Korea
Australia
Italy
Spain
Turkey
The UK
etc.
 
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TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
Indeed Jeff, the V22 has great potential.
It has it's flaws to. The Cargo hold was designed after the CH46 making it to narrow for carrying even a compact car.
the Rotor blade diameter was made to short making it work harder to hover, This was done to allow it to fold up for naval use.
It lacks pressurisation.

but longer range than any helicopter,
faster speed.
can land in a far smaller area than any turboprop and take off in the same.
Transport, Cargo plane, Special ops infiltrator ( it's original aim)
CODs, Tanker, ISR, AEW, ASW, Gunship, SAR even VVIP. I could easily see.
 

asif iqbal

Lieutenant General
You guys are missing the point

All that might be true about V22 but the decision is political

Why Northrop Grumman has been dropped from carrier service in UCAV and transport role even although it was ahead of Boeing ?

X-47B was almost a done deal

Grumman gets lawsuits dropped over bomber deal Boeing gets carrier deals

Military contracts are not black and white
 

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
You guys are missing the point
no Were just not chasing the Conspiracy rabbit.
All that might be true about V22 but the decision is political
D you have hard evidence of that?
Why Northrop Grumman has been dropped from carrier service in UCAV and transport role even although it was ahead of Boeing ?
First Northrop Grumman decided not to enter the MQ25 on there own. Second Northrop Grumman still is on Carrier decks in the E2D Advanced Hawkeye They also make major systems for the F/A18E/F and EA18G
X-47B was almost a done deal
No it was not. The X47B could have become one had the Navy not Scrubbed the whole program of record. X47B was part of the Unmanned Carrier-Launched Airborne Surveillance and Strike, as the name indicate UCLASS wanted a Strike and Survlence bird not a Tanker.
MQ25 comes from the Carrier-Based Aerial-Refueling System, Which emphasizes the Tanker role. X47B was for UCLASS when Northrop Grumman looked at their bird and compared to the demands They had a Sports car, The Requirement was for a Tractor pull.

Boeing has not suddenly gotten the MQ25 contract what they have is a demonstrator, General Atomics also supposedly has an entry for the MQ25 n the way.

Grumman gets lawsuits dropped over bomber deal Boeing gets carrier deals
They have not gotten the contract yet,
IMG_0001.jpg

Military contracts are not black and white
no contract has been signed yet. You have jumped the gun.
 

asif iqbal

Lieutenant General
Terran empire you are good member but again missing the point

But let’s keep fan boy attitude out

Judge based on reality rather than capability

Judging on military merit alone is not good enough there’s plenty of people who do that on other sites

Are saying politics never influenced military contracts ? If so you have no idea
 

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
Asif, Politics does factor I will grant you. But Dude you are trying to make an argument of a conspiracy based on leaps of flawed logic.
for military contracts 3 factors stand above all 1 does it meet the mission need, 2 Can they build it? and finally bid.

The problem with your logic is.
First the MQ25 has not been finalized for production. General Atomics and others can still jump.
Second the X47 was designed as a stealthy observer and striker not for the MQ25, The requirement for the X47 has because of politics of the Budget that killed anything beyond the demonstration phase. X47B was as far as it would have gone.

Third There were three options put forward for the new COD. First was Northrop Grumman's offer of a new C2 based on the E2D. Second was Lockheed Martin's "C3" a rebuild of the S3 Viking as a transport. And Third was the V22.

Lockheed offered to build from the S3, was retired from the USN, although much to the consternation of many. The Lockheed Martin C3 was basically a new plane with the wings of the S3 and Tail. So you are using parts that have some wear on them farther more there has been a push to sell some of those birds. 91 exist of them most are still flyable some are not so numbers are limited. And that factors in as it means you can only acquire so many. farther more because of the mix of new and old and the fact the S3 was retired from service, This would require instituting a new lines of parts, training and maintenance either retired from service or brand new.
This basically killed the C3. Although parts are known systems the fact they are out of service means this would be a totally new system likely with the need of teething time.

The Navy wanted 48 units. The Current fleet of the C2R only numbered 39 so 9 units would need to be constructed if they refit existing units. a production run of only 9 is rather unlikely to happen So the other option would be to build a whole new fleet of C2 based on the E2D, "C2D" if you will. Now on the up side the E2D is in active production and has training and maintenance running.
On the other hand the demands of the C2D would only share some of the E2D training and maintenance facilities, especially as the Fuselage would be totally difrent
E2D rear
Sailors-prepare-to-move-an-E-2D-Hawkeye-assigned-to-the-Greyhawks-of-Carrier-Airborne-Early-Warning-Squadron-VAW-120.jpg

C2 rear
eac8e692bd14059595c0842f5e467dc7.jpg

farther more a order of 48 units is again a hard sell in the Bama era. The bigger the order the more likely to be filled.
Although far more mature and based on a established support system. The Demands of production and order would have meant pausing the E2D line to construct C2D which would have caused issues of procurement for the E2D, because a E2D cannot become a C2D and visa versa.

CMV22 Osprey, comes in now, First The Navy was always going to buy Ospreys, they have a number of concepts floating around NAVAIR for the V22 HV22, SV22, and EV22 as well as the established MV22 they order for the USMC. The USMC has the Training and Maintenance system established, They have the logistics system in development. This is a Mature ready to go program. A Proven contender. The Marines have always been part of The Department of the Navy( And Marine Corps). Marine Air and Navy Air are like Conjoined twins. So The Navy knows the V22.
Next V22 is designed to do the Job. They are not taking an existing Airframe and rebuilding it into a transport V22 is a Transport. It's designed to fit in a Hanger deck It's even smaller than the C2R when folded .
800px-V-22_Osprey_wing_rotated.jpg

V22 folded is almost half the Width of the C2.
The Production line is already active, The Marines place orders every year though NAVAIR and The V22 line regularly cranks out 2 variants of the V22 the MV22 of the USMC and CV22 of the USAF so ordering 44 48 or 50+ CMV22 is not a hard issue.
So Established support, Established Supply, Established production all in the Fleet. The politics? It's easier to ask Boeing to add 10 CMV22 to the Marines MV22 order every year, and Expand the V22 support infrastructure to the Navy Then it is to add new C2 or C3 and build from square one the Support.
 
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